[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode 622 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell; I have COVID, so pardon my voice; and my guest this week is Kirsty Greenwood. Kirsty Greenwood’s new book, The Love of My Afterlife, is out now, and it is bubbly and charming, and it’s funny, and we’re going to talk about it. We’re going to talk all about it. We’re also going to talk about making friends as an adult and how she packed just about every genre inside this book. There’s even a heist. [Clinking sounds] I am, of course, recording while Wilbur is eating food out of his dish, because that’s how things go here. Like I said, there is even a heist, which is probably why it’s the Good Morning America book club pick this month. Congrats to Kirsty for that; that’s pretty cool. I also learned during the course of this recording that she is a former book blogger, so there’s a lot of recommendations. Fear not; they will be in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode 622.

Wilbur continues to snack. That is the one noise I can’t take out of the audio. I can remove helicopters, I can remove garbage trucks, I can even remove my neighbor’s band saw, but the sound of the cat dropping food into a metal dish, I have not found a way to edit. There: a little behind-the-scenes joy.

Speaking of behind-the-scenes joy, hello and thank you to our Patreon community. Wilbur, must, really, you have to eat right now? I, I have just enough lung capacity to do this, and now is snack time. Okay. Well, a special hello and thank-you to StarshineDown,, who is one of the newest members of our Patreon group. Patreon supports me; keeps the show going; makes sure every episode has a transcript hand-compiled by garlicknitter. Hey, garlicknitter! Garlicknitter, by the way, was kind enough to email me this week and say – [laughs] – Hey, I haven’t received this week’s episode, and I said, That’s ‘cause I can’t talk. Thank you, garlicknitter, for being patient. [Of course! Your health is important! – gk] Every episode is accessible with a transcript because of garlicknitter and because of you and the Patreon community. Thank you so much for your support.

If you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com/SmartBitches. Monthly pledges start at one dollar per month.

And one more thing: if you are listening to this on July 5th, at 8 p.m. Eastern on July 5th, the Romancing the Vote auction will end, but if it is before 8 p.m. Eastern on July 5th and you are listening to this, do not miss the Romancing the Vote auction. Not only is there an absolute ton of cool stuff being auctioned off for writers and for readers, but I have offered an opportunity to co-host Romantic Times Rewind with me and Amanda. That’s right: you would get to do two episodes, the ads and features and the reviews, and in one of those episodes we will take a break and do a mid-roll ad to promote whatever it is you want to promote. I don’t usually run mid-rolls, but that is included in this offering. You can find this opportunity under the Everything Else section in Romancing the Vote, and it’ll be fun to hang out with you, so if you are interested, take a look at the Romancing the Vote auction. It ends tonight, but you still have time. All of your donations for the Romancing the Vote auction are benefitting Fair Fight and Vote Riders, and I suspect that they will cross a million dollars raised across all auctions this year. The link to the auction is in the show notes, or you can go to 32auctions.com/romancingthevote2024.

So, are you ready to take a trip to the afterlife? I mean, we’re not actually going to the afterlife; we’re just going to talk about it. On with my podcast with Kirsty Greenwood.

[music]

Kirsty Greenwood: My name is Kirsty Greenwood, and I am the author of The Love of My Afterlife, which is a romantic comedy book that is coming out on July 2nd, and it tells the story of a curmudgeonly young woman, Delphie, who dies right on the first page of the book and is sent into the afterlife, where she’s challenged to go back to Earth for ten days and find her soulmate.

Sarah: You’ve been practicing that, right?

Kirsty: Actually, that was the best I’ve ever done it? [Laughs]

Sarah: It was fantastic. It was abs- –

Kirsty: It’s been really bad and rambly all of the other times, so, actually, yeah.

Sarah: Superb, ‘cause I was like, Yep, yep, yep, yep! Wow, that was really good! I couldn’t do that if you paid me money!

Kirsty: [Laughs] It’s becoming a log line slowly but surely.

Sarah: Yeah! Yeah, you’re going to get –

Kirsty: Yeah. Each time less convoluted.

Sarah: So, congratulations on The Love of My Afterlife. I have to tell you, you wrote every genre into this book.

Kirsty: [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s all the genres! Like, I know you said it was a rom-com, but I’m reading it and I’m like, Oh, hang on, now we’re, now I’m in a, in a heist. Hang on!

Kirsty: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: Now I’m in a thriller! Hang on! Now I’m in a family drama! What, what happened? This, now it’s women’s fiction! What – every genre is in this book. I’m waiting, I’m waiting for your sequel to be announced and be like, And then there were elves.

Kirsty: [Laughs] I mean, it wouldn’t, I wouldn’t, like, put it past me?

Sarah: No? So what led you into this book, and what are readers going to find inside?

Kirsty: I’d been self-publishing for a while, which had given me the confidence to really, like, lean in to what I was into?

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: Because it was, I was writing things that publishers wouldn’t necessarily go for, but then the reader response was, you know, as it is in the indie community, like, it’s, it’s, it’s serious; like, these people, if they like something, they will let you know.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kirsty: And they let me know, and it made me feel like the most important thing to do when writing a book is to just absolutely have the best time and write exactly what you want to read and the things that make your heart light up. And so I did that with this book, which is why there is a little heist in it, because – [laughs] – I love a heist movie, and it’s like, Well, why not? You know, I didn’t know that this was going to im- – to my mind, it was going to be another self-published book. I didn’t know that it would be picked up by publishers, and I didn’t know it would get this much attention on it, which is a good thing, because I think if I’d known that in advance it might not have been as free as it turned out.

Sarah: And it’s lot of fun! Like I said, not only did you write every genre in the book, but it’s a lot of fun!

Kirsty: Thank you!

Sarah: It also made me cry, which is, good thing I don’t wear mascara at home.

Kirsty: [Laughs] Oh!

Sarah: I would have been a mess. I would have been just, like, tracks all the way down. Because –

Kirsty: I love that.

Sarah: – you – well, you know, thank you, and also damn it.

Kirsty: I mean, I’m sorry. I’m sorry that you cried, but also, Ha-ha-ha.

Sarah: Yeah, I mean –

Kirsty: I did my goal!

Sarah: – that’s kind of the whole goal, right? Like, I –

Kirsty: Yeah! [Laughs]

Sarah: – I won’t pretend otherwise.

One of the things you just mentioned, that your heroine Delphie dies like in the first few pages of the book, I was –

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: – I was, like, reading this before bed, and I was like, Oh, I can’t read this before bed! She’s dying alone in her apartment; I need to go read something really, something else right now! Like, I had not realized, oh no, she croaks on the first page.

Kirsty: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, straight away. I mean, I love a, a punchy opening line of a book and a punchy scenario, you know, and it’s like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: – I wanted it to give her the most humbling and embarrassing death, so immediately it’s like, how is she going to come back from this?

Sarah: Yep, and dying on a, what, what is ostensibly like a, like a gas station convenience store microwavable burger –

Kirsty: Yes!

Sarah: – ooh!

Kirsty: [Laughs]

Sarah: Er! Yikes!

Kirsty: So gross! So, I mean –

Sarah: Sucks!

Kirsty: – I mean, they’re pretty, they’re pretty tasty? When, when my publishers in the UK were trying to acquire the book, they sent a microwavable burger through the post!

[Laughter]

Kirsty: My husband – I was going to keep it for, like, posterity, at least for like a couple of weeks, and then my husband had gone to the pub, and he came home and –

Sarah: Oooh!

Kirsty: – ate it. He ate it!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kirsty: And I think it was like past its sell-by date as well?

Sarah: Oh!

Kirsty: So it could have been like a, a real-life Delphie dying-on-the-microwavable-burger situation, but thankfully it wasn’t.

Sarah: Can you imagine explaining that to your, to your doctor? Like, he’s in the hospital, he’s vomiting everywhere. So what happened? Well, my publisher sent me a microwavable burger because they wanted to buy my book, and they would be like, All right, we also have a doctor for you to talk to. Just wait one second.

Kirsty: [Laughs] Yes! Straight up!

Sarah: Imagine that! Oh –

Kirsty: …that’s very, the most niche of scenarios.

Sarah: Mm-hmm! Yeah, but meanwhile I’m like, Yeah, of course they sent a burger; makes total sense. Absolutely.

Kirsty: Yeah! I mean –

Sarah: So –

Kirsty: – it was cute. I was, I was charmed!

Sarah: It’s very charming! It’s super cute!

Now, you’ve been, so since you’ve been self-publishing, obviously you, you know what your readers like, and you know what you like to read. Was it –

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: – a different experience having a publisher come into this, to the process of, of bringing The Love of My Afterlife to market?

Kirsty: Yes! It, it, it was and is and it’s been joyful. It, it’s been, it’s taken me a little bit of time to get used to not having full control –

Sarah: Yeah! Oh yeah.

Kirsty: – over everything –

Sarah: Yeah, yeah.

Kirsty: – you know. I think when you’re self-publishing you’re, you’re running all aspects of it, and, you know, it, it definitely helps you to, like, you know, lean into your control-freak tendencies.

[Laughter]

Kirsty: So it’s taken me a little while to get used to it, but it’s been just wonderful? Like, to the point where I feel slightly guilty for how lovely it’s been, because I know that it’s not necessarily the case for lots of authors?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kirsty: You know, I think, ‘cause I, I’m friends with a lot of authors who’ve been in, you know, in the trenches of publishing, traditional publishing, for many years, and it can be tricky! But I think I’ve just lucked out; I’ve really lucked out with Berkley and Century in the UK. They’ve been so on board, and it’s been lovely to have all of that expert input, you know, and not have to – and just have, like, you know, expert editors and, and the marketing team. You know, they’re coming up with things, and I used to do my own marketing, and then when they were bringing ideas to me I was like, Oh, this is how you do marketing! Like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kirsty: – I don’t know what I was doing, but it wasn’t this! Like –

[Laughter]

Kirsty: Yeah! It’s been, it’s been an absolute dream, you know, and I’m, I’m verging on smug about it. [Laughs]

Sarah: I mean, I, I would be. I remember when I first got – ‘cause I’m, I’m, started as a blogger, so I edit myself –

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: – and when my first book was in process and I got, like, the track changes back, and I had lost my editor; she left the publishing company, and I was inherited by two other editors that I didn’t know, so I had different-colored bubbles all the way down the sides of the manuscript, and I was like, This is so exciting! They’re telling me what to do! This is amazing! I don’t have to figure it out myself? This is great! I had so much energy –

Kirsty: It’s so great.

Sarah: – to do stuff! [Laughs]

Kirsty: And it makes it so much better, and you’re just like, you see some of those comments and you’re like, Oh, these, these people really know what they’re doing!

Sarah: Oh yeah! You’re right; I do use that word too much.

[Laughter]

Kirsty: Yeah, exactly! Exactly. I had, on this, we had, I had the UK editor, the US editor, and the Canadian editor all working together, and it was really great because they all had different skill sets, so they were all noticing different things –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kirsty: – that could be improved upon, so it just felt like it was, from all angles, like it was being covered, which, you know, feels like a relief to me after previously, you know, self-editing and not being entirely sure what the result was going to be.

Sarah: Yeah, for sure! For sure, for sure.

Now, with Delphie, I, I love that as a character she’s very prickly, but also deep, like, oh, one of the, one of the lines later in the book is that if she, if her heart was a color it would be yellow.

Kirsty: [Laughs]

Sarah: She moves from being alone to making a lot of connections with other people, and I think that’s probably my favorite part?

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: Especially, like you just said, with, with going through the experience with all of these other people who, who are now on your team that you didn’t have before, it’s kind of like, Oh, wait! Wait, things are easier when there’s other people around?

Kirsty: [Laughs]

Sarah: That, that’s annoying!

Kirsty: Yeah!

Sarah: It’s so annoying!

Kirsty: Inconvenient.

Sarah: Damn it, people, people are, people are exhausting. It’s really hard to do that as an adult, even professionally. Did that, did that theme in the book grow out of your own experience? Because, I mean, I, I definitely see it with some overlap in terms of making new friends or, or dating and seeking a partner. Like, are you a person who fits? Do you fit me? Do I fit you?

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: Do, do we match? Do we vibe on the same wavelength? Like, ‘cause that’s really hard to predict; you can’t predict that on one of those apps where you swipe in all the time.

Kirsty: You really can’t.

Sarah: No!

Kirsty: You can’t. I think you – I mean, I was completely, I was very much like Delphie, very introverted. I still am an introvert, you know, but I was unwell for a while, and I moved to London, and, you know, as part of my recovery it was like, I have to get out there. I have to try to make some friends as an adult, which is harder to do than I would have anticipated, ‘cause, you know, you can’t just go up to someone and say, Do you want to play LEGO? you know –

Sarah: Right. Oh, hey, you want to go –

Kirsty: – like you did when you were a kid.

Sarah: – go on the swings? Yeah.

Kirsty: Yeah, exactly!

Sarah: They look at you weird when you do that.

Kirsty: [Laughs] Exactly!

Sarah: Although, for the record, I always want to go on the swings.

Kirsty: Oh, totally, and, yeah, swings, LEGO, like, I mean, there should be that for adults. Like, we should have swings dates.

Sarah: Oh, I would love that. Swings and champagne, right?

Kirsty: [Laughs] Oh my God, yes! All that –

Sarah: Not too much –

Kirsty: – although that could lead to vomiting.

Sarah: Yeah, you can’t do too much swinging with the champagne, but just enough. Just a little bit of glamorous side to side.

Kirsty: Yeah, just whimsy.

Sarah: Yeah!

Kirsty: Just a little whimsy.

Sarah: Just a little bubbles and whimsy; I’m a big fan.

Kirsty: [Laughs] And so, like, I was, you know, really introverted, and I thought, I’ve got to, I’ve got to make some friends, and, like, I was in therapy and, and they said, You have to get out there. You have to, like, connect with people again and start seeing the joy in life. And so I did! And it was, it was really awkward, you know? It –

Sarah: It’s so awkward.

Kirsty: Really fricking awkward. But what was surprising is how receptive people were and how many other people it seemed were open to making new friends as an adult. You know, it was, I was, I just, I remember trying to, like, be in a queue, and if someone turned around and they said something, I would carry on the conversation and would try to deepen the conversation actively, whereas I used to just be like, Meeeh, and turn away –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kirsty: – you know, and, and just mutter something and go back to whatever I was doing, probably staring at my phone. But it was really lovely how receptive people were, and I made an agreement with myself to pursue everything, every, every invitation I got, you know, and, and, and some, some of them didn’t come to anything. I didn’t connect with everybody, but there were a few who have become really, really close, and it’s been life-changing to have those people in my life –

Sarah: Yeah!

Kirsty: – and, and, and not just to have a friend, but to be a friend as well has been a really lovely thing.

Sarah: And I love that for Delphie, she has connections. They’re just very, very rigidly set up. Like with her neighbor Mr. Yoon, she has a very –

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: – she has a very close and intimate relationship with him.

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, she, she is caring for him as an older person. Like, she’s doing a lot of physical and emotional and, and, like, she’s cooking for him, that sort of thing.

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: But she wouldn’t think of Mr. Yoon as her friend at the start of, of the, of the book. She’d be like, Oh, that’s, this is my neighbor and I’m looking after him ‘cause I’ve known him forever.

Kirsty: Yeah. Exactly. I think she needs to put those perimeters in place, because I think maybe she would feel more obliged to open a cell phone to be friended at, if that makes sense?

Sarah: Yes, absolutely! It’s –

Kirsty: And, you know, and she doesn’t, she can give, but she isn’t in a place where she feels she can receive.

Sarah: No, not at all.

Kirsty: You know, and it’s just a defense mechanism. She’s so stubbornly protecting herself.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: And that it literally takes a life-or-death scenario to kind of kick her out of her comfort zone.

Sarah: Yeah. And because she has this time limit, she, she has to find this guy Jonah –

Kirsty: Yes.

Sarah: – rando Jonah in all of London –

Kirsty: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and she has a certain number of days to do it or she’s going to go back to whatever place she was that was some sort of afterlife, the afterlife laundromat –

Kirsty: Yes. Yes.

Sarah: – and because of that time limit, I, I, one thing I really love as a narrative device, and it doesn’t, I don’t think it has a proper name? Maybe it does and I just don’t know what it is. The idea that characters recognize that they have nothing to lose, so they’re going to be completely and entirely their awkward, messy, clumsy, weird selves, and –

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: – because time is running out, it doesn’t matter.

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: And so you have the character sort of retracting the distance between their public performance and who they think that they ought to be to other people or who they think they ought to be with other people, and just retract that fake performance back and just become themselves?

Kirsty: Yes.

Sarah: Which is –

Kirsty: Yeah!

Sarah: – so lovely to read about, but also very, very vulnerable.

Kirsty: Yeah! It’s, it’s hard. I think that’s what you have to try and do in real life in that scenario as well. Like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: – for me, I did feel, like, slight desperation to connect with people, because I knew that not doing it was affecting my mental health –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kirsty: – you know. But also, in terms of, like, narrative devices, I love the idea of, you know, things being a, having a quick turnaround, because the character just has to move. They don’t have time to dwell and to find ways out and alternatives. They are just kicked into action straight away, which I think makes for a much more interesting story.

Sarah: Absolutely. Now, I also wanted to ask you, ‘cause you mentioned moving to London and making friends, and I know from your bio that you, you lived in a small village.

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: And then you moved to London.

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: Little different.

Kirsty: Very different. I was, I was living with my husband in a gorgeous village in the countryside where we thought we were going to settle down, have children, and do that whole thing, and that didn’t work out the way that we’d planned, and during COVID we were in this little village, and we were so bored. It was beautiful, but really quiet and, and quaint, and, you know, we thought, there’s just the two of us, and we’ve got an opportunity to, to move to the city and, you know, I’m super into theatre, and my husband is really into art, and, you know, we have an opportunity to go there and just experience the city, being childfree and having a little bit more income, you know, than we would have had if we’d have stayed in Delph and had children. So it just made sense, it made total sense, and it was the very best decision. I’m, like, so much more, so much more life happens here for us, you know? So much more is going on, and there’s, you know, we’re not, we’re not bored anymore.

Sarah: Yeah, I should say not. There’s –

Kirsty: [Laughs] So far!

Sarah: – there’s, there’s a little bit of art and some theatre there where you are.

Kirsty: A little bit!

Sarah: Small amount.

Kirsty: [Laughs] Yeah!

Sarah: Now –

Kirsty: Have to, have to root to find it, but it’s there.

Sarah: – it strikes me, because I’ve read a lot of what I think of as small cottage English fiction? Everyone –

Kirsty: Yes.

Sarah: – always picks up from the city and goes out to Tiny Town.

Kirsty: Yes

Sarah: Tiny Town of everybody knowing your business, and you pay calls on one another and all of that.

Kirsty: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: And so you did the opposite! You were like, Nope! Going for the city.

Kirsty: Yeah! ‘Cause I think, I mean, I think a lot of people in my life as well, they did the whole thing where they went to the, they lived in the city –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kirsty: – in their twenties and, and thirties, and then moved to, you know, like Tiny Town, whereas I didn’t do that. I was in Tiny Town for a long time, you know, so it’s – and I think it’s, you know, it’s interesting. It’s a completely, it’s still that same fish out of water, but just the other way around.

Sarah: Yeah! It is. And it’s also a completely different way of, of life, living in a city versus living in a small town.

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: I know –

Kirsty: Much more distractions.

Sarah: A lot more distractions!

Kirsty: Exactly! And I don’t think people think of the city as being very community-focused.

Sarah: Super community-focused.

Kirsty: It really is! It really is. When I first moved to London, I lived in a place called Holborn, which was a very silly thing to have, have done, because there was no community there. It was like office buildings?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kirsty: And then I moved to Paddington, and, like you say, it just had the dry cleaners; the, the supermarket, like, the, the mini-supermarket; the post office; and it was very village-y and lovely; and, but also you had that buzz and that bubble of being in a city.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kirsty: It, it, it’s just, yeah, it was ideal.

Sarah: Yeah. And it’s, and it’s nice to not be bored, right?

Kirsty: [Laughs] Yes! Yes! Just, I think the, the, the most exciting thing that was going on in Delph, where I lived, and it was beautiful, and I love Delph and the people there are brilliant, but the most exciting thing was if the brass band were going to rehearse on a Sunday morning, you know? And what the brass band were going to play outside the local shop.

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Kirsty: [Laughs]

Sarah: I bet there was a task force? I bet there was a committee –

Kirsty: Okay –

Sarah: – and then the committee had a task force? I bet this gave birth to many meetings of, of great tension.

Kirsty: Honestly, the, the morning they did a cover of “Firework” by Katy Perry, like, a highlight –

Sarah: My –

Kirsty: – a highlight.

Sarah: My word!

Kirsty: [Laughs]

Sarah: So you mentioned, we, we were talking about Delphie and making friends and making connections –

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: – and how in the story she has this time limit, so she’s, she’s fresh out of fucks. Like, she doesn’t care. Like, I have to get this done; I do not want to go back to the laundromat afterlife. I want to find this hot guy who I had a connection with.

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: I, I don’t care; I need to get this done. It’s a little bit different when you’re like, Well, I’ve just moved to a new place –

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: – and you mentioned, you mentioned, you know, talking to people if they start a conversation with you; you keep the conversation going. What are some –

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: – other ways that you have found successful in making connections to people as an adult?

Kirsty: I think being less quick to judge? I think maybe, possibly, like Delphie, it’s a defense mechanism to kind of take against somebody before you even know them, and I’m guilty of that; I’ve been very guilty of that in the past. So really trying to, like, not, to not judge people and to just take, get to know people?

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Kirsty: One of the other things I did as well was I joined a musical theatre workshop, ‘cause I love musical theatre, I love writing it, so I joined this workshop called BML as a lyricist, and I go there every Monday, and I am paired with a different collaborator, and we, we have, like, challenges to do. So it’s like write an I-want song or write an eleven-o’clock number. And it’s a really great quick way to connect with people, and then, you know, that develops into Let’s go see this show, or –

Sarah: Yes.

Kirsty: – like, After the class, let’s go to the pub, and, you know, I think nothing bums a friendship like a three-hour pub session –

Sarah: Oh!

Kirsty: – where you’ve drunk too much and you’ve confessed everything. You know, there’s no coming back from that. [Laughs] It’s like I, I know you and you know me –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kirsty: – on a very deep level now. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yes.

Kirsty: We’re ride or die now.

Sarah: And pint glasses are no joke; that’s a lot of beer.

Kirsty: [Laughs] They’re really no joke!

Sarah: They are no joke.

I find it really interesting when I speak to people about making friends as an adult, a lot of the time that friendship happens through art

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: Either you’re taking a class, or you’re going to a museum, or a new craft store has opened up, so you go and go to the crafting. I, I have found a lot more friends through quilting and fiber arts, and I know there’s –

Kirsty: Yeah!

Sarah: – craft stores that opened up, and they’re like, Come and be a community space. A new craft store opened up near me in DC? It has a bar and empanadas and a café? I’m never going to leave.

Kirsty: Oh my God! Boozy crafting! That’s –

Sarah: Yes!

Kirsty: – perfect – 

Sarah: It’s like sit and sip –

Kirsty: Oh my God.

Sarah: – but, like, everything.

Kirsty: Yeah. My friend Caroline would love that. She’s very much, she, she into quilting as well –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: – and that’s part of her social life is, is doing, like, crafts and sewing and quilting. But it is, like you say, it’s like art. Even if it’s just as a conversation starter and –

Sarah: Yes.

Kirsty: – you know, because it is immediately something that you connect with, and it can develop into, you know, deeper subjects, but it is, and also it’s because it’s, we’re coming out that conversation with, from a place of passion, and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: – and happiness, you know –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: – it’s a really lovely thing to connect over.

Sarah: Whatever piece of art has brought you to the same place is obviously something that you both have an affinity to, so you already have something –

Kirsty: Exactly.

Sarah: – to talk about.

Kirsty: Exactly, and you –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: – identify with similar themes and, you know, I mean, I, you know, I’m never, I really doubt that I would ever connect with somebody who was a, who was into Andrew Lloyd Webber musicals? I think that would be a real ick for me, whereas if they were like, came in and they were like, Oh, I love Sondheim, I would be like, Okay. Okay, I’m, I’m into that. [Laughs]

Sarah: I myself am a Rodgers and Hammerstein person, so I understand.

Kirsty: Oh, yes. Perfect! Perfect! Sorry to any Andrew Lloyd Webber listeners out there. [Laughs] I don’t know; if you, if you like the same things, there’s a good chance that you’re going to, you’re going to like each other.

Sarah: Yeah! And if you can find something art-related that you have in common, it gives you things to talk about so that you don’t, like – for me, it’s my social anxiety hamster wheel? Did you say the wrong thing? You’re going to say the wrong thing. Don’t say that! Don’t say this! And it’s like, I’m trying to be a normal person; just shush. It gives me a, a, a sort of a frame upon which to build the conversation –

Kirsty: Yes. I liked that –

Sarah: – when you’re doing that third thing.

Kirsty: – so much.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: So, so…because it is; it’s like you go, what angle do you go in at with, in a new conversation with somebody?

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: You know, and it’s really nice you can glom onto something. You’re like, Oh, I, I know a bit about this! And, like, you know, I want to know what you think about this! Okay, we can have a conversation now, and I’m not going to veer off into something really ridiculous and personal, overly personal, which is something that I, I tend to do.

Sarah: Yeah, me too; sorry.

[Laughter]

Kirsty: Which is fine in, like, on, on, you know, later on in the friendship –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: – or in those opening conversations is a very joyful and, you know, reasonably safe place, I think, to go from.

Sarah: Yeah. And like you said, it’s, the thing that was created as a piece of art is, is a, is a product of some sort of passion or affinity, and so your witnessing it is also a part of partaking in that. It’s, it’s just good energy all the way around.

Kirsty: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah: Now, I know you’re a massive fan of romance. I mean, you did write every genre in this book, but I know you are a massive fan of romance. Do you remember your first romance?

Kirsty: I…

Sarah: Or some of the earliest that you’ve read?

Kirsty: So, would it be classed as a romance? I don’t know. Love – Forever by Judy Blume…I guess?

Sarah: Oh, you know? I read that too, and even though –

Kirsty: Yeah?

Sarah: – SPOILER, people – they break up at the end –

Kirsty: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: – it was also really, like, it, it was very powerful intimacy, that book.

Kirsty: Yes! I think that was the first time I was reading – you know, it was the first time, certainly, I was reading any sex scenes – but it was the first time that I was reading, like, an intimate relationship and the emotional dynamics of that –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kirsty: – and I was very invested in that right away.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: But then I think, romance-wise, I think it was what we were calling at the time, like, chick lit –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Kirsty: – in the UK?

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: We had a big wave of that in the ‘90s and, and early 2000s –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: – and I was very, very into that, and I ended up running a website about it called Novelicious. I was so, so obsessed with that. So I think like maybe Bridget Jones and Jill Mansell and, like, Fiona Walker, who wrote these stories of, like, posh people getting up to mis-, mischief in the countryside.

Sarah: Yep!

Kirsty: And that was the first time that I was experiencing romance novels as just absolute pure entertainment and –

Sarah: And joy.

Kirsty: – just being like – yes, and joy – and being like, I’m having a damn good time here.

Sarah: I had no idea you were Novelicious. I’m like, Oh, this is why we get on! You’re a book blogger! Okay! [Laughs]

Kirsty: Yeah, book blogger, yes! I mean –

Sarah: I had no idea!

Kirsty: – you’ve heard of Novelicious!

Sarah: I had no idea! I love –

Kirsty: Really?

Sarah: – your website so much.

Kirsty: No way! Oh! [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes way. Abs-, I’m like, what, wait, you were Novelicious? Holy shit! Really?

Kirsty: Yeah! I, I miss running it! It was, that’s how I met Verity, actually, our mutual friend. She –

Sarah: Hi, Verity! [Laughs]

Kirsty: – she wrote…and –

Sarah: She’s going to listen to this and be like, What?!

Kirsty: Yes!

[Laughter]

Kirsty: Well, we, we finished it, I think it was 2016, because I was focusing on writing, and actually –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kirsty: – a lot of the founding members as well with me were also writers, and, and now we’re all published, which is fantastic, and we’re all writing, you know, we all came up writing romance together when we were reading and reviewing these books and, and just being obsessed, and then, you know meeting each other outside of Novelicious and talking about what we liked about these books and why they were good or bad and, and trying to use that to help us craft better novels ourselves.

Sarah: Oh, for sure!

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: And the thing about chick lit at that time was, it was before the major economic recessions, at least the one that happened in the US, and I’ve –

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: – always thought that New Adult, the very dark, emotionally angsty stories, those are –

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: – coming-of-age stories; those are the inverse of chick lit, because chick lit was coming of an a-, coming of age at the time when your first job might enable you to get an apartment –

Kirsty: Yes! [Laughs]

Sarah: – maybe with a friend or maybe by yourself! And –

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: – you had money left over for fun shoes. You had a fun shoe budget in chick lit world. You know, we had a different economy back –

Kirsty: Absolutely! Oh my God.

Sarah: We, we, it was a different economy. It’s –

Kirsty: Ohhh, the good old days!

Sarah: Right? If you could get your first job and, like, have a cute bag. I mean, there’s a reason why that was, chick lit and Kate Spade were the, were on the same trajectory, you know?

Kirsty: [Laughs] Yes! Oh my God, yeah. You could, you would literally be able to afford a one-bedroom flat in London with an assistant publicist salary.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Kirsty: Like, yeah.

Sarah: That’s not true anymore.

Kirsty: …me. Yeah, gosh. So it was, it was, it was a lot of frivolity. But joyful frivolity.

Sarah: Yeah!

Kirsty: I mean, I think it still influences what I like to read and write now, because I think a lot of romance nowadays, it’s, it’s much more romance-focused, which –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: – I, I love that –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: – but I think also because of my history of reading chick lit, it’s like the career, the professional development, the self-actualization, the developing friendships, all of that, I find, goes alongside the romance in that, like, the heroine has to be separately ready to be, you know, before she can be in love, you know. It’s cheesy to say, She has to love herself before she can fall in love, but I, I like that it isn’t just the romantic relationship that, that restores her or –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kirsty: – or brings her the confidence that she’s seeking. It’s, you know, it’s her career and, and her friends and her relationships with her family, and that’s properly influenced, I think, how I write romance now.

Sarah: If, if people are asking you for romance recommendations, are there books you recommend most often? Are there books that you – I know this is a terrible question ‘cause the minute I ask it you’re like, I’m sorry, what’s a, what’s a book? Book? I don’t know what those are.

Kirsty: [Laughs] It is, do you know what, it’s, it’s a hard question because there are so many, and I’m like –

Sarah: I know.

Kirsty: – I’m, I would then ask, What mood do you want –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kirsty: – to end up with? And what kind of era would you like? And, you know, I don’t necessarily, I guess I do lean in, more into tropes now, because it’s a thing that’s acknowledged. It wasn’t acknowledged, I don’t think, like, in the 2000s, you know. They were there, but no one was calling them tropes at the time.

Sarah: No.

Kirsty: And so I think I would have a series of questions for romance recommendations. So, for example, if you wanted to, pure entertainment, I would suggest Fiona Walker, who, I don’t know if you’ve heard of her? A British author – yeah.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Kirsty: The, the one I mentioned before, it’s like, it’s posh people misbehaving in the countryside.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: It’s very juicy. They’re all very, very juicy, and there’s lots of ro-, there’s lots of romping about and, and, like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kirsty: – hijinks and, like, people stabbing each other in the back and, you know, fake dating and, and huge, glamorous parties. That’s, like, pure entertainment.

I think if you’re wanting an emotional pick, I would recommend Paige Toon or perhaps – I’m just trying to think, I’m trying to look at my – I mean, I like Jane Green; I used to love all of Jane Green’s early stuff.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kirsty: And then for comfort reads, I would go to Cressida McLaughlin, who writes these, like, Cornish Cream Tea, like, romances, although she’s branched out now into standalone romantic comedies. They have a really strong sense of community to them, and they are a hug in a book. Like, absolute hug in a book, so if you want something at the end of a day to just make you feel better, then I would, yeah, I would say that.

I want to get into historical romances, because everyone I know is telling me that they are incredible, and I’ve yet to, like, get into them? But everyone’s saying, You need to read, like, historical romances. This is, like, they’re amazing.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: Yeah, like –

Sarah: Have you read Nicola Cornick?

Kirsty: No!

Sarah: So Nicola Cornick is a British writer. She does historical, but time-slip, and a lot of her books are Tudor rather than Regency or Victorian, but they are, they are very, I call them ethereal but creepy in a good way?

Kirsty: Yeah?

Sarah: There’s almost always a major historical figure whose life is being sort of retold through the story. Sometimes characters pass back and forth; sometimes they just go once through time or figure out –

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: – how to get back or one, one place, like the past and the present maybe laid over, laid over top of each other through one, like, tree or a doorway or something. They’re so ethereally creepy and so atmospheric; they’re lovely. You might like that in terms of blending sort of the community focus and the, and the very real sense of place with a historical time period.

Kirsty: Yeah, and I love the idea of something dark and evocative and creepy.

Sarah: Oh, creepy’s having a moment, too.

Kirsty: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, the other, the other genre that’s really having a moment in addition to, like, romantasy and, you know, dark and intense emotional romance is horror. Horror is having a huge moment right now; it’s kind of cool.

Kirsty: Yeah. Can you, can you recommend any?

Sarah: I am not as fluent in my horror as I am in other genres, but I can tell you that you might really like Rachel Harrison?

Kirsty: Right.

Sarah: So Rachel Harrison is writing – if women’s fiction and horror had a very sexy baby.

Kirsty: Perfect! Oh my God.

Sarah: So she has one called Such Sharp Teeth, which a young woman –

Kirsty: I’ve heard of this one.

Sarah: – is bitten and is being transformed into a vampire – or not a vampire – a werewolf? She’s being transformed into a werewolf. And she has a new book coming out, and I have to pull up – okay. It’s called So Thirsty, and it’s a vampire novel, and it, and it is –

Kirsty: Oh, perfect.

Sarah: – so creepy. And the, the other one you might like is Black Sheep, which is about a woman who has escaped a religious cult that her family is in, and she has to go back for a family wedding, and everyone is just as weird and cult-y, and she’s sort of getting sucked back into everything?

Kirsty: Ooh!

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: That sounds like my cup of tea.

Sarah: Yeah. You might really like Rachel Harrison.

Kirsty: Yeah, I love anything that is, is dark and twisty and, you know. I loved – I guess it’s not that dark, but it is vampiric – I loved Twilight when it came out? Like, I –

Sarah: Oh yeah! For sure!

Kirsty: I, I was so obsessed with Twilight. For about I think six months it was my entire life. But even now it’s like, have you read Death of a Bookseller?

Sarah: No!

Kirsty: I – really good, creepy. It’s, it is not a romance; it’s, but it’s really, really dark, and the author refers to it as her nasty little book.

Sarah: Ooh!

Kirsty: Which it is! [Laughs]

Sarah: Okay!

Kirsty: But, yeah, I, I love – and I also love, like, really dark, twisted friendship novels as well?

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: Anything with toxic friends where they’re, like, really rich, and they live in New York, and, you know, completely unaware of themselves –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: – while they’re in this toxic friendship. Like, oh, I love that. There’s, there’s, there’s more to choose from of, of that genre than you would think, but it’s like catnip to me. I love it.

Sarah: You might like Moorewood Family Rules by HelenKay Dimon? It’s about a family of con artists, and one of them has just gotten out of prison and is trying to get everybody to go straight?

Kirsty: Moorewood Family Rules.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: Will you send me, will you send me, like, a little list, actually?

Sarah: Oh, absolutely! Also, you like heists! Have you read Sara Desai, To Have and to Heist?

Kirsty: I haven’t! No, I haven’t, but I think I’ve got that on my Kindle?

Sarah: Yep, and then there’s the Alisha Rai heist, Partners in Crime, where they have to track a stolen necklace across Vegas.

Kirsty: Oh, that sounds good.

Sarah: Yeah. I’ll, I’ll put together a whole list.

Kirsty: It’s like, anything with romance –

Sarah: That is a romance! That’s got some –

Kirsty: Oh!

Sarah: – that’s got some hot sexytimes in it, too.

Kirsty: Okay. ‘Cause I like the idea of that, like a full-length novel that is based around, like, the forced proximity comes in the form of having to heist –

Sarah: There you go.

Kirsty: – like…yeah.

Sarah: Yeah, heists are having a, having a moment, and that – Partners in Crime, To Have and to Heist, The Blonde Identity, all of these might, might really work for you.

Kirsty: Yes.

Sarah: I’ll, yeah, I’ll put together a list. We’ll email…

Kirsty: Thank you!

Sarah: Of course!

Kirsty: Thanks! I love that!

Sarah: Now, I always ask if there are books that you are reading that you want to tell people about, but I also want to ask what are you working on right now? In addition to book release, which is an all-consuming thing; it’s like having a second job; but are you working on anything –

Kirsty: [Laughs]

Sarah: – are you working on any new writing right now?

Kirsty: I am; I’m, I’m writing my next book for, in my book deal with the publishers, and it’s called Sexy Spooky Love Story.

Sarah: Oooh!

Kirsty: And it’s set in the Scottish Highlands. It’s childhood-enemies-to-lovers. So it’s a, a woman who goes back to her hometown in Scotland for a wedding, and she is haunted while there by the ghost of her teenage best friend, who was a real wildcard when she was alive and is horrified by the stick-in-the-mud that the heroine has become. Have you seen Broad City?

Sarah: Yeah!

Kirsty: Yeah, so it’s like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kirsty: – if Ilana was a ghost.

Sarah: Oh, goodness.

Kirsty: [Laughs]

Sarah: Got to use that.

Kirsty: And she was haunting Abbi.

Sarah: You, you’ve got to use that as part of your hook, because that, that, I understand completely what’s going on here.

Kirsty: Yeah. [Laughs] If Ilana was haunting Abbi and getting her into all kinds of trouble.

Sarah: Where can people find you if you wish to be found?

Kirsty: I do wish to be found, and I’m mostly on Instagram, @kirsty_greenwood, I think. That’s where I’m kind of spending most of my time, because it seems like a relatively safe place in, you know, in comparison to the hell site Twitter –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kirsty: – which I avoid. I have a website and a newsletter, and, and I also have a Facebook group called Kirsty Greenwood’s Literary Darlings, where –

Sarah: Literary darlings! I love it!

Kirsty: It’s, it’s very cute, and, and we just chat about books and, you know, shoot the shit, and it’s nice! It’s like a little friendship group. Yeah, and that’s one of the nice things, actually, that’s come from self-publishing is having a real, like, you know, I had a lot of email, emails from readers back then, and because I didn’t have like a huge readership I was, you know, I was able to, like, develop those email friendships –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kirsty: – and so, like, you know, they’re all in this group now, and it’s really nice. It’s a nice place to be.

Sarah: And that, that goes back to what we were talking about earlier with friendship, because I signed o-, like, I deleted my Facebook account, I think it was like 2019, and then –

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: – I realized that so much of what is happening around me is being talked about in groups on Facebook?

Kirsty: Yeah.

Sarah: So I had to create a new account just for groups? And there are some truly lovely human beings in my community –

Kirsty: Really.

Sarah: – in these groups!

Kirsty: Yeah!

Sarah: Thank you so much for doing this interview; it has been an absolute delight to meet you.

Kirsty: Same, same! This has been really lovely, and it’s flown. Yeah, thank you!

Sarah: Oh, believe me, I, I have had such a, such a lovely time. And if you are ever in the DC area, please email me and let me know.

Kirsty: I would love that, and we can go…

Sarah: Go to that craft store with the bar.

Kirsty: Yes!

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. It’s always fun for me to listen to the intro and outro if I’m recording while I’m sick and then listen to what my voice sounds like when I’m recording the interview, which was a couple of weeks ago? It’s always fun to be like, Wow, I really do sound terrible! So I apologize for how terrible I sound. Hopefully I will be better next week.

The books and links and everything we talked about in this episode are in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, and that includes the new craft store in DC. It is called Merry Pin in DC, M-E-R-R-Y, and I am going to take classes there; I’m very excited.

I always end with a terrible joke. This week is no exception.

Why should you fear pirate ducks?

Wilbur, why should you fear pirate ducks?

Well, Wilbur fears no ducks, but why should you feel, fear the pirate ducks?

Because they have the power to unleash the quackin’!

[Laughs] It’s a joke so good it makes me cough.

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is brought to you by – no, it’s not what I’m supposed to say! Let’s try that again! Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is actually brought to you by the power of electrolyte drinks and Paxlovid right now; that’s what’s bringing this podcast to everybody this week, but Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

Be safe out there, have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll see you back here next week.

[end of music]