[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 630 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and my guest today is Chris DeRosa. Chris DeRosa is the co-host of the podcast Fixing Famous People, and Chris has been a reality TV producer for over eleven years. So we’re going to talk about his career, starting with Food Network, moving into unscripted reality TV like Real Housewives, and then we’re going to talk about how reality TV has changed and how much of the narrative producers have influence over and what parts they don’t. We’re also sort of locating Real Housewives on a larger timeline of major television programs that center women over forty.

I have had a really interesting time taking a little deep dive into the overlap of romance readers and reality television fans, ‘cause I know there’s a lot of people in both camps, and I think this episode holds a lot for writers because it is about making the conflict and the motivations behind conflict public and spoken in dialogue, so if you look at this conversation as a new way of looking at Show, Don’t Tell, it might hold some really interesting insights for writers.

I do want to mention at about forty-five minutes in [45:00] that there is a mention of a character experiencing the death of a parent.

I also have some cool news: a special event on Wednesday the 11th of September at 8:00 p.m. Eastern, 7:00 p.m. Central US, I’m going to be co-hosting a Zoom crafts gathering with Agatha from the She Wore Black podcast for our Patreon audiences. So, Wednesday, September 11th, 8:00 p.m. Eastern, 7:00 p.m. Central, we’re going to be on Zoom. Bring your crafts, bring a drink, and you can join us for some mayhem and probably book recs. This will be for the five- and ten-dollar a month Patreon tier members, and I will be sharing the Zoom links on Patreon. So remember, September 11, 8 p.m. Eastern, 7 Central, crafts and drinking with Agatha from She Wore Black, and I will have more as we get closer to.

And if you’re thinking, Ooh, I’d like to join, and you’d like to join the Patreon, awesome! You can have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Monthly pledges support the show, keep us going, and make sure that every episode has a transcript which is hand-compiled by garlicknitter. Hello, garlicknitter! [Hello! – gk] You are making sure that every episode is transcribed and accessible, and you’re making sure the show keeps going! So if you would like to join, have a look: patreon.com/SmartBitches. It would be most excellent to have you join us!

All right, are we ready to talk about reality TV? I am very ready. I hope you have enjoyed this sort of deep dive with me. It was a real, real thrill for me to get to talk to Chris about his job and what it means and how it works because this is not a thing I know a lot about, but I’m very curious to learn more, and I hope you enjoy this little mini deep dive with me. On with the podcast.

[music]

Chris DeRosa: Let’s to talk about pop culture and how it, like, connects to American society at large.

Sarah: Oh my gosh, yes, that’s my –

Chris: You know what I mean?

Sarah: – favorite thing.

Chris: Which is, like, not –

Sarah: My favorite thing.

Chris: Yeah, which, like, no one ever thinks that I…do. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh my gosh, no. It is my favorite thing, and –

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: – the, the things that are popular in, in popular culture are absolutely reflections of who and what –

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: – we’re doing and who we are, and, like, Real Housewives being so popular and so, so, like – I know it’s, like, franchised in, like, there’s all those –

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: – different cities? Each one is so distinct and different that that has meaning!

Chris: Yeah, and yet they’re all the same show at the end of the day. Do you know what I mean? Like, the format –

Sarah: That’s just wild to me.

Chris: – is exactly the same, and so that’s, like, why you can, well, I mean, I can talk about that forever is that, like, I mean, Food Network does a good job of this too, where it’s like all their shows are technically the same thing, but yet they’re different, and so you can just keep watching every – like, like, if you know how to watch this show, you can endlessly watch every city.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s like Law & Order.

Chris: Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent! Which is something that everyone loves and is, like, respected –

Sarah: Doon-doon!

Chris: – you know what I mean? Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah! Yeah. I mean, it’s now like a joke; like, what is your Housewives catchphrase? Which, actually –

Chris: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: – is a question I should ask you! Chris, what is your Housewives catchphrase?

Chris: I have one. I’ve had one since college, actually.

Sarah: Oh my gosh, I love that!

Chris: It’s so funny; even before I worked on the shows, we all were like, What would we, what would we, what would yours be? And mine would, my first one that I ever thought of that was like a good one that I still today will, like, get the ladies with is that – okay, so let me get into my character. I’m standing there, and I’m about to turn around. It’s: I may work behind the camera, but I’m always in the spotlight.

Sarah: [Laughs] Bravo!

Chris: Which is, like, basically Nathan. [Laughs]

Sarah: That’s amazing! And this year you got to be on camera!

Chris: I…yes! [Laughs]

Sarah: Regrettably?

Chris: The back of my head – not regrettably, but, like, it’s just, like, the back of my head was on camera, yes.

Sarah: Yes, but many people were like, It’s Chris!

Chris: Yeah, yeah, people were like, Was that you? I was like, Yes! Like, you don’t know what I look like? [Laughs]

Sarah: That’s what I do! It’s my whole-ass job.

Chris: Yeah. [Laughs] Like, ‘cause sometimes when you tell people you work on these shows they’re like, Well, like, how? And I’m like, What do you mean, how? Like, you know what I mean? Like, I’m like, I’m there every day with them. I’m the voice you hear asking them questions like –

Sarah: You think the camera just floats around independently? [Laughs]

Chris: Yeah, like, what do you think – yeah, like, they just film with themselves? Like, I don’t get what you are saying, How? And then when they, things like that happen, people are like, Oh, you really do work on the show! And I’m like, yes! [Laughs]

Sarah: I have a permanent dent in the back of my pants from my little microphone pack!

Chris: Yeah! [Laughs]

Sarah: Come now! You know how you get, like, that belt mark? No! You have a –

Chris: Yeah. No, for real –

Sarah: – a mic pack mark on the back.

Chris: – for real. For real, yeah. [Laughs]

My name is Chris DeRosa. I am a television producer. I am also a podcaster, and I’ve been working in reality television for the past, what, eleven years now? And –

Sarah: Wow!

Chris: Yeah, and I’ve been doing my podcast for, what, a year and a half. I’ve had many a podcast before, but my most successful one, the one that’s ongoing, is called Fixing Famous People, where me and my co-host Dominick Pupa will pick a celebrity client every week that is in a little bit of PR hot water, or someone who, like, we want better for –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – that isn’t doing – you know, we wish their career was better than it is ‘cause we love them – AKA Jane Krakowski – and we pitch ideas of how to fix them, and our guest gets to pick who wins.

Sarah: I love the show.

Chris: And it’s a, and they win, we win nothing. We win nothing. [Laughs]

Sarah: You win the people’s ovation and fame forever!

Chris: Well, yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: I watched Iron Chef; come on now.

Chris: My mother has, like, my mother has been like, Good job on your pitch. I’m like, Okay. [Laughs] Like – 

Sarah: Look, your mom thought it was good; you win!

Chris: Yeah, like – [laughs] – I went, Okay. Like, it doesn’t matter. You don’t need to, like, congratulate me on the wins.

Sarah: So I want to talk to you about your work on Real Housewives and your work –

Chris: Okay.

Sarah: – on reality TV. A lot has changed in reality TV over the past eleven years, hasn’t it?

Chris: A lot, a lot has changed. It’s funny that you bring up Iron Chef, because Iron Chef America’s final season was my first job.

Sarah: No way!

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: [Gasps]

Chris: My first PA job in television was on Iron Chef America – like OG, not the new one that was on Netflix – like OG Iron Chef.

Sarah: Oh my God!

Chris: Yes. And if, and if you go back and watch that show now, this, as well as Food Network Star?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: They really, you really got to see how TV is made. Everything, everyone begs me to, like, explain how those shows are made, and I’m like, It’s there for you to see. Like, you can just go watch old shows and, like, it’s there.

Sarah: Yeah! The cable –

Chris: It’s, yeah.

Sarah: – you can see the cables; you can see the camera guy running around.

Chris: The cameras, yeah!

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Chris: You can see all kinds of – yeah! It truly is, like – yeah, that was my first job. That was my first –

Sarah: That’s amazing!

Chris: Yeah, and it, and the weird, because it was, like, such a big production, whereas, like, even the next year I was working on Chopped, which obviously everyone knows if you, like, remotely watch Food Network? And that even was like such a scaled-down version of Iron Chef?

Sarah: Ohhh!

Chris: Like, just crew, like – there was a lot of crew, but, like, just in general, like, it wasn’t as big in the sense of, like, you walked in that stadium and there were, like, cameras on the ceiling going across a track; and there was, like, lights; and there was smoke; and there was, like, twinkle – like, it was like –

Sarah: It was the kitchen stadium! Yeah!

Chris: It was crazy. Whereas, like, even Chopped, it’s like half of the studio you don’t even see, ‘cause, like, we’re all standing there. Do you know what I mean? Like, it’s like –

Sarah: Yeah. They’re all like this?

Chris: Like, it’s interesting, ‘cause even then I knew that that was a time where, like, This is ending. Like, they’re not going to make shows like this anymore, and I don’t even know how I knew that, but I did.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Do you know what I mean? Like, it was, yeah.

Sarah: Which reality shows have you worked on? You’ve worked on Iron Chef, you’ve worked on Real Housewives –

Chris: Oh my God, what a question! I’ve worked on Iron Chef; I’ve worked on Chopped; I’ve worked on The Kitchen on Food Network, which was a Saturday morning, like, their response to The Chew when The Chew was on.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: I worked on a show with Clinton Kelly from What Not to Wear called Love at First Swipe. That’s like an O, that’s a throwback OG like in deep-cut reference. I worked on – I mean there was a million – I worked on some – for Bravo, I’ve worked on most notably The Real Housewives of New York, OG. Cur-, like, presently, the ones airing right now, The Real Housewives of New Jersey. I did a season of Summer House; I did a season of Married to Medicine. I’ve done Bethenny and Fredrik’s real estate spinoff on Bravo; I did The Big Shot with Bethenny on Max. I’ve done My Unorthodox Life on Netflix. I’ve done – what else on Netflix? – Snack vs. Chef on Netflix –

Sarah: Wow!

Chris: – a cooking competition show for snack foods? I’ve worked on Beat Bobby Flay for, from, like, a PA into a supervising producer level.

Sarah: Wow!

Chris: Beat Bobby Flay (Holiday Throwdown), which is very fun to do. So a lot –

Sarah: Your, your resume’s like a CVS receipt.

Chris: It’s, yeah. [Laughs] I mean, this is eleven years of shows, and, like, some of those are like a month of work. I don’t know; there’s a mill- – I mean, my IMDB has them all on there, so.

Sarah: I will, I will, I will load your IMDB, and my computer will start steaming its…

Chris: Oh, another one! Another one: for Peacock, The Real Housewives Ultimate Girls Trip, which is basically like an All-Stars, like, big ass trip of a bunch of different women? I’ve done that as well.

Sarah: Okay, I have so many questions.

Chris: That’s a good one. Like, that’s a good, that pertains to this conversation, so I…

Sarah: Yes. So the reason I wanted to talk to you – so I did a consult with you about podcasting, ‘cause you have –

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – lots of ideas that are very, very cool; it’s the whole foundation of your show; and I really wanted to ask you about working on Real Housewives because I, I work in the world of romance fiction, and there are a lot of romance fans who also love The Real Housewives, and it’s really gotten me thinking about how you construct a narrative, why that narrative is appealing to romance readers, and the audience of these shows, which I know as a producer you have to be somewhat attuned to: what is the audience expectation, and how are we going to meet it or not meet it in this case?

So just for a starter question, ‘cause I know a lot of people who are listening don’t know about reality production, what is your work with Real Housewives like? Like, how much can you talk about what you do?

Chris: I mean, you basically talk to the peop-, you talk to these people every day. I mean, working, just in general, working on any kind of, like, reality show with, with an ensemble cast, like, you’re constantly talking with them. Everyone’s always like, Oh, it’s so scripted; obviously you tell them to do this, and I’m like, I wish that was the case, ‘cause then it would be so much easier.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Chris: They’d be…

Sarah: You don’t walk in and be like, Here’s your script –

Chris: Like –

Sarah: – and they hand it back –

Chris: Yeah, no. Yeah.

Sarah: – and they’re like, No, I’m not doing that!

Chris: Yeah, like, that’s like, I wish that I could say, it would be so much easier if it was scripted, ‘cause then I wouldn’t have to – like, you, you, you’re constantly getting people to get to a place where they’re explaining why they’ve reacted the way that they have about something. That is a lot of the job, you know what I mean, is talking to people: How do you feel about this? Why do you feel this way? Why does this, why does it feel like this person went behind your back and did this? Like, why do you feel betrayed by your friend? Which, as much as anyone wants to try to say that it, it’s not relatable, every, I always say that, that The Real Housewives is conflict resolution porn because it’s really –

Sarah: Oh!

Chris: – even, you know, until certain cases where, like, people are like, No, I, this friendship can never be repaired? What they do is they get into, like, you know, they air their grievances with each other, they have it out, and then at the end of the day, like, the goal is to have them come back together and mend their friendship and move on.

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: So, as much as everyone thinks that it’s not, it is. Like, and so, ‘cause in theory, even if they don’t even really see each other outside of the show, which, like, I always urge them to make connections outside of filming, and that is why a lot of the original shows were so good for so long, because the people were really friends –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – outside of this? Like, they really did know each other, and most, most things they have a connection too – you know what I mean? – they have a connection. Are they their best friend that they’re going to sleep in the bed together like Sonja and Ramona used to do? No. But do they know each other? Are they friends? Are their kids friends? Are they this – like, yes. Like, it really is –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – for the most part that. And finding out – I’m not answering your question.

Sarah: No, you are, actually!

Chris: Finding out, like, why, why you feel this way, which, again, I, as much as it’s not relatable, like, everyone has their friend that they get into an argument with, and that person might bite their tongue for the rest of their life and never tell their friend that, why they’re upset with them. Or every time I go hang out with my friend, I always walk away – you know, my friend that I’ve had for fifteen years that I really shouldn’t be friends with anymore?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: That I hang out with, and every time I leave that, that, hanging out with them? I’m up-, I’m upset. And I, like, am upset that I did it, and I’m upset with myself, and I’m upset with them, and I don’t really like them anymore –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – but I’m friends with – you know what I mean? That kind of a thing, because –

Sarah: Yeah, I feel shitty when I’m done talking to this person.

Chris: Yes. And in our world, I’m like, Well, then, you need to say that. You know what I mean? Like, they, they know that it’s like, Okay, like, I need to explain why I feel this way whenever I’m with you.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Does that make sense?

Sarah: Totally makes sense! You’re, you’re –

Chris: And so –

Sarah: – you’re forcing them to verbalize conflicts that might otherwise stay internal.

Chris: Yes, and that is the essence of – and I think there’s so many elements that get us – and this is, like, this will lead us further – but there’s so many elements of, like, getting into their mindset that we use –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – on this show that I think is the direct parallel to a romance novel.

Sarah: Oh, how so?

Chris: I feel that people think they’re so similar, or people, the, the audience might be a huge crossover, because there’s a misconception, I assume so, that romance  novels are, like, for older women whose husbands don’t have sex with them anymore, and they, like, mas-, this is their porn. Like, they masturbate to this.

Sarah: I nod emphatically at that stereotype; that is the case. It’s changing –

Chris: Yes.

Sarah: – thank God it’s changing, but that is very much –

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: – still a relic that we deal with, yeah.

Chris: And, again, like, in the parodies of romance, it’s always like, Their loins were on fire, and…

Sarah: Yes, bodices busting out everywhere, yes.

Chris: Yes, like, they just couldn’t contain their, like, passion, and, like, they, their member, like, they saw his member, but, like –

Sarah: Yes.

Chris: – I always think of the word member, which is, like, the best shit ever.

Sarah: Sometimes the member is turgid. Turgid member is always nice.

Chris: Yeah. And, like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Chris: – they did this, and blah-blah-blah, and it’s very much, again, like, this, the, the – it’s always these, like, somewhat, like, pornographic, like, you, this would be, like, you know –

Sarah: Hyperbole, yeah.

Chris: – you know, the stable boy, like, takes the princess from behind in the stable or something. Do you know what I mean? It’s like –

Sarah: Yes!

Chris: – there’s very much that –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – happening, whereas, like, the Housewives, the stereotype is like rich, older women who are either single and alone and pathetic or, like, they’re rich, and their husbands hate them, and they are mean, and they throw wine at each other.

Sarah: And flip tables. Yeah.

Chris: And flip tables, which, like, to defend her –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Chris: – the table was actually never flipped. When you go back and watch that episode, the table never flipped over.

Sarah: No.

Chris: Yes, it’s, yes, we’ve run, ran with it for seventeen million years. Like, the ta- –

Sarah: I have seen that clip a few times.

Chris: – the table has never flipped.

Sarah: No.

Chris: Like, it, yes, did she pull it up, and did everything fall on the ground? Like, was it absolutely horrifying? Yes. It has, she said on camera and off, like, I hate watching that moment back, and I, I, it’s like my most embarrassing moment of my life? Yes.

Sarah: Yes.

Chris: Do you know what I mean? Like, so –

Sarah: Yes.

Chris: – you know. Did it build –

Sarah: But that becomes the stereotype, just like –

Chris: Was it a humongous – yeah.

Sarah: – the bodice ripping and the turgid members, and yeah, that becomes your –

Chris: Have I ever – honestly, now I think about it, have I ever filmed any of them throwing wine in each other’s faces? No.

Sarah: Huh!

Chris: Has it happened? Yes. Have I ever, on a, have I ever, when I was working – I’m trying to think. I really have to think about it. I don’t think it’s ever happened.

Sarah: Wow. So you’re, you’re –

Chris: So that’s the thing that’s so funny is like –

Sarah: – dealing with stereotypes and then a reality beneath that stereotype.

Chris: Yes. And –

Sarah: I relate to this on many levels!

Chris: And, and at the center of that is “women of a certain age,” quote-unquote –

Sarah: Quote-quote.

Chris: – that by scripted – I’m really derailing this, but – by scripted TV standards have zero representation up until, like, who? Jessica Lang on American Horror Story?

Sarah: Yes.

Chris: And it’s – do you know what I mean? Like, a woman who, like, still is hot and is sexually desirable?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: You know what I mean? Every older woman is like, again, Golden Girls. You know what I mean? Like, where, which, like, the meme of, like, these are fifty-year-old women. Like, this is what they were portrayed as in like the ‘80s. Do you –

Sarah: They’re almost my age, which is a, like, amazing to me.

Chris: Again, in a scripted standpoint? Like, they’re, if, if you’re like sixty years old, you are a grandmother or, like, I think of like Gran on, like, True Blood? Like, they’re, like, the, the old grandmother that’s, like, making pancakes every morning.

Sarah: Yep –

Chris: You know what I mean? Like –

Sarah: – yep, yep!

Chris: – that’s, like, what you’re representation is, up until very – I mean, I think the only show to really do this, like, for a long time was Desperate Housewives, which, when you look back, like, the reason that everyone holds something in their hand in the, in shows of Real Housewives is because in the beginning of Desperate Housewives they were all Eve with the apple –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – and they were naked. And the whole intro to Desperate Housewives was like the snake going through the, the trees, and they were all Eve with the apple tempting men.

Sarah: Yep.

Chris: You know what I mean? And so the reason that they all hold, held oranges was because it became The Real Housewives, because Desperate Housewives was the biggest show on television.

Sarah: And there’s a direct line there.

Chris: And there’s a direct line there, whereas, like, this was like women of a certain age, like, having sexual stories, and it was like, again –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – gangbusters, like, everyone loved it, watching Eva Longoria hook up with her gardener, Jesse Metcalfe. Like, come on –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – what a time.

Sarah: Yep.

Chris: A tornado would go, a tornado came through Wisteria Lane; there was a plane cra- – I mean, please, don’t even get me started with, like, how ridiculous it was, but that, it was like the number one show on TV for a long time.

Sarah: Oh yeah, it was huge!

Chris: And it, that was, where’s the next, where is there another version of that on scripted television today? There isn’t one.

Sarah: There really isn’t. Yeah.

Chris: I mean, in, like, in New York we had Sex and the City, but at the time they were like thirty years old; like, they weren’t even old. Now And Just Like That… is the only thing, but that’s like, I don’t even count that.

All this to say – sorry – I bring this to these women who are fifty, sixty years old, who might have left their husband because their husband was a loser, or their husband made all this money at the beginning of their marriage, and then their husband kind of like stayed in their deadbeat job, and then the women kind of became something and, or something way better than their, they’ve outpaced their husband in every way and now are like, Why am I with you?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Like, these women who are either single at fifty-five and are like, What do I, do I get married again? Like, what’s the point of this? Like, what?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Like, doing all the, like, these kind of women are not represented in scripted television, but where they are represented is on Real Housewives.

Sarah: Oh yes. One of the things that my staff writer Shana and I were talking about when we were talking about her love of Real Housewives is that in romance we have tropes. We have things that are present in the romance like forced proximity, marriage of convenience, grumpy/sunshine, all of these, these things that you see patterned over and over; those are –

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – tropes, and you can market a book based on those tropes. And another thing that she thought was an overlap between The Real Housewives and romance is, like you said, you’re, you’re basically watching conflict resolution porn? And I’ve heard podcasting described as eavesdropping on a friendship? Which is why –

Chris: Sure.

Sarah: – a really good podcast is when you vibe with both people and you’re part of their relationship? With this, you’re eavesdropping on conflict resolution, but all of these people are in forced proximity. They’re contractually obligated to be together. They have to go to the thing. Like, you know, you can’t be like, Oh, I don’t feel like it. No, girl! You’ve got to put your shoes on and go to the dinner, because the dinner’s being filmed. You’ve got to go. So there’s –

Chris: Well, and, if you, if you don’t want to, like, we’re, Okay, so then what are you doing instead? And then someone goes to your house. Do you know what I’m saying?

Sarah: Yeah!

Chris: It’s like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – If you’re not there, like, regardless of this, like –

Sarah: Something else is happening.

Chris: – I’ve, I’ve many a time just gone with my cell phone to someone’s home to, like, film them not being there.

Sarah: Yeah!

Chris: Do you know what I’m saying?

Sarah: Yeah!

Chris: Like, you, like – yeah. I’m down.

Sarah: And yet your, your responsibility in some respects is to create that space for these people, and I, and I use the term character as in –

Chris: Sure.

Sarah: – character of your personality, not the person whose role you’re playing, ‘cause I realize it’s a facet of them, but it is still them? Like, there’s the –

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: – On version of them and the Off version of them, and you’re getting like something more –

Chris: Well –

Sarah: – of the On than the Off.

Chris: And all of our jo-, are, my, my biggest part of my job is to push through that, like, I’m presenting for the camera version of myself –

Sarah: Yes!

Chris: – and get to the real version of them.

Sarah: Which requires trust! Like, you have to –

Chris: Yes.

Sarah: – establish trust with these people to have them be vulnerable, because part of the conflict resolution is vulnerability, right?

Chris: Correct. And there’s all these different devices that we use to get into their, what they’re thinking like the interviews. Like, the only reason –

Sarah: Yes.

Chris: – you need an inter- – like, you don’t need to have an interview, like, in your, in the scene? Like, in theory, if they verbalize everything that, like, we are, that we need to know, like, we don’t need to cut to an interview just to have one? Like, in theory –

Sarah: Mm-mm.

Chris: – you shouldn’t need that many interviews. Like, we shouldn’t be relying on the interviews to tell the story is what that, what is always told to me. Like, we shouldn’t have to rely on, like, We’ll just get this in interview. It’s like, No, we actually need them – like, that’s a fail in some ways.

Sarah: Dialogue is always preferable to monologue, right?

Chris: Sure, yes. And then –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – also, too, like, the interviews are then like them being able to be like, Well, the reason that I feel that this is a betrayal is because A, B, C, and D, which, like, maybe in the moment they didn’t verbalize –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – perfectly, because –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – why would they?

Sarah: Right, you don’t, you don’t collate and bullet-point your thoughts until you’re alone and you go like, Damn it, I wish I’d said that!

Chris: Well, and you’re, like, talking with another person, so you’re not going to be like, Here are the four ways of why I think this is wrong. Like, do you know what I’m saying?

Sarah: Yes! [Laughs]

Chris: Like, you’re just reacting to what, like –

Sarah: Let me get my PowerPoint!

Chris: When you’re on, like, a phone call with your friend, are you ever like, And here are why the reasons that this is, doesn’t make sense. Like, do – and, too, if it’s two people that know what they’re talking about, like, they often are just, you’re just talking; you’re not having to, like, reintroduce the topic all the time. Do you know, get what I’m saying?

Sarah: Right. It’s all shorthand –

Chris: In a normal conversation, like, we would just speak shorthand to each other, whereas, like, then I’m like, Okay, but this needs to make sense to an audience, and so now I will implement this device, which is an interview, which is explaining to the audience something they might have missed, again because these people really talk to each other off camera and actually have a relationship.

Sarah: That’s the other thing I want to ask you about: the audience. Now, I know that fandom interactions, since The Real Housewives franchise has started, is a much bigger element to the show now. Like, back when Real Housewives started we didn’t have as much social media; we didn’t have as much ability to clip and remix the, the actual show itself; there’s creativity built on the original material. Like, there’s all of this audience interaction and feedback. Does the audience for Real Housewives have expectations about how a season will go? Does, do audience expectations filter or affect what you’re doing as you develop a season?

Chris: Not develop a season, because – I don’t know; okay, let me, how do – this is a good question. When I think of the audience, I think of, like, did they understand what, why this is happening? That’s what I’m worried about. At the end of the day, we’re always coming to it and being like, Well, what, how do you feel and what do you do? Like, like, we’re putting it on them –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – to be like, You tell us what the situation is, and we will react. I’m always coming to it of a place of, like, authenticity, where it’s, ‘cause, like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – at the end of the day, if it’s fake and it’s, like, put on, then it always falls apart.

Sarah: You, you can tell.

Chris: Yeah, and it, and the audience can tell. The audience is smart, and I think another thing is that when you have these people on these shows for so long, you get to know them so well. Like, you get to know them –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – intimately, so you know when it’s fake, and you know when it’s them, and you, like, you’ve, you, you can tell. Do you know what I’m saying? It’s like –

Sarah: You can tell when someone’s being disingenuous.

Chris: Yeah, the aud-, yeah, the audience is smart and knows, like, Well, that’s completely out of character for this person to do this. Why are they –

Sarah: Yes.

Chris: – doing it? And so that’s my job to find out why.

Sarah: The other thing that I think is so interesting about The Real Housewives is that you also have that break with reality, because you are on reality TV, but it’s still TV. It’s almost like –

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: – I, I liken it to like when you’re in theater and you have a proscenium that’s multiple frames? You know, you have an opening…

Chris: Yeah, sure, sure, sure, yeah.

Sarah: – and it’s multiple layers? It’s the same thing: you have reality, and then you have reality TV, and then you have scripted TV. There’s still a lack of reality inherent in what you’re doing, but these are people playing themselves. That’s an interesting tension to have to negotiate season after season after season.

Chris: And, like, I want to make the distinction, it’s like I never want them to be a person playing themself. I always want them to just be themselves. Like, that is –

Sarah: Be themselves, yeah.

Chris: – like, a big part of our job is to be like, Okay, this – even in interview sometimes, whenever it’s like Blah-blah, I’m like, Okay, that was your staged answer; now, what’s your real answer? Like, I don’t want to –

Sarah: Oh, that’s interesting!

Chris: Oh yeah!

Sarah: You, you keep pushing through the –

Chris: Oh yeah!

Sarah: – performance to get to the actual person.

Chris: Correct.

Sarah: Wow!

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: And that, that requires a lot of emotional labor on your part.

Chris: Yeah, it sure does. [Laughs]

Sarah: You must be very tired.

Chris: Sometimes!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Now, when we last spoke, you mentioned that packing scenes are always unpopular with the audience, but they’re very important narratively, and I have been thinking about this since you said it, and I think it’s so interesting, because you have a packing scene where the Housewives are going to go on a trip to Very Cool Location – yay, Bravo budget for travel; awesome – but also they have to get ready. And, you know, when I’m packing I’m always trying to distill what I need – I want to pack as light as possible – but, you know, who am I going to be on this vacation? Am I going to be wearing this outfit, or am I going to be wearing that outfit? Am I going to be doing this? I’m going to be – what, what do I need to prepare for, and how do I want to feel on vacation? And then picking out outfits to go with that, that’s all narrative! That’s an important narrative.

Chris: And also, like, Oh, we’re going to be going to this thing. It’s a good way for, like, the, like – what am I trying to say? Like, like, logistically and kind of like nuts and bolts version of it is like, it’s a great way for us to, like, tease the things that will happen on this trip so that we know – we’re not just like, Oh, we’ve been carted off to some mystery place that we don’t know what’s going to happen. Like, we kind of –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – hear beforehand, Oh, this person’s planning a dinner at this place, like, so I need an outfit for this dinner; I need an outfit for blank; like, we’re going to do a, we’re going to do a zip line through the jungle –

Sarah: Yep.

Chris: – so I need to get, like, I can’t –

Sarah: So I won’t be wearing heels for that!

Chris: – I can’t be wearing a dress! You know what I mean? Like –

Sarah: Yep.

Chris: – I need to wear this!

Sarah: Whoo!

Chris: You know what I mean? Blah-blah-blah. Like, I need to, like, have this, and, like, that, for the nuts and bolts of it, there’s that, but then also I think a, something that – and this is specific to, like, an ensemble cast show that wouldn’t be on, like, a, the, like, The Bachelor? Like, the shows where the cast changes every year, whether that be Below Deck, whether that be The Bachelor, whether that be – I don’t know; not so much competition shows –

Sarah: Love –

Chris: – ‘cause that always is what it is?

Sarah: Love Is Blind always changes, yeah.

Chris: Yeah, like, Love Is Blind, even though I do love, I do love Love Is Blind, but it’s one of the very few shows that I like that, like, the cast changes over every season, because they do so much heavy lifting to explain to you who these people are? Whereas, like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – on Housewives, you have, like, five, maybe six seasons of them explaining who this person is? And so – and the way that they do that, just as much as, like, when they get in a fight, how do they react? Whenever this happens, how do they react? When someone’s like, when something bad happens to them, like when something sad in their family happens, how do they react? Whenever something, like, really great happens, how do they react? When they get a huge business deal, how do they react? We see these people, like, in their houses unloading their dishwashers.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: You know what I’m saying? Like, you see them –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – at their very most mundane thing, you know what I mean? And I know you’re a good Real Housewife if you can just do a packing scene with your dog.

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: Like, if you can talk to your dog and be like, and make a funny scene of, like, you packing, that’s hilarious. Like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – that is like being able to be yourself at rest and while you’re doing something that is like running an errand or, or going to the doctor or –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – pack-, again, packing for a trip, something you do, like, by yourself in silence while you’re, like, watching TV –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – you know what I mean? You’re, like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – watching TV while you do it, and you’re not even really doing anything? The, all those things are like little nuggets of character development for us. And it’s like where you take that kind of a thing, where, again, when you meet these people, and the first time I ever met Sonja and Ramona and all the Real Housewives of New York, it was like, Oh, I know everything about you. Like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – I know what your house looks like; I know what your bedroom looks like; I know what your bathroom looks like. I know what kind of clothes you have. I know –

Sarah: And if I wanted a bottle of water, I know where it is in the fridge –

Chris: I know where it is in your fridge.

Sarah: – ‘cause I’ve seen the inside of your refrigerator.

Chris: Yes.

Sarah: How many friends do you have where you’ve seen the inside of their refrigerator? Not that many.

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: That’s a close person.

Chris: And especially as an adult, not really that many.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Chris: You know what I mean? You have friends that you, like, have had for years that you’ve never been to their apartment. Do you know what I mean? Like, it –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: That, to me, is like, so even in – and this is something that Andy has said a million times is like, they always leave in the food orders? And, like, when people order drinks, like, they always leave that in, and then when the food comes, like, that’s a huge part is, like, making sure that we give a shot of the food landing at the table to, like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – see that the food – ‘cause again, one, it’s like, looks nice, because it makes the restaurant look nice. You know what I mean; like, we’re filming at these places and, like, Oh, look how nice this restaurant is, and look at how nice the food is here! And it –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – you know, nine times out of ten, it’s always a really nice restaurant that’s like, has really good food, and so we want to show that it’s nice, you know. And –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – and do a solid for the place letting us film there.

Sarah: Oh, for sure! The place –

Chris: But, like –

Sarah: – is as much a character –

Chris: – yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: – it’s in the name of the show! It’s The Real Housewives of Place!

Chris: Well, and so many of the restaurants have become, like, these famous jaunts where, like, like, in OC you have The Quiet Woman, where, like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – this bar, where when I was in Orange County, my friend Kate Casey and I were going to get dinner, and I was like, Can we get dinner at The Quiet Woman? And she was like, No. Like, and she, we were –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Chris: – we were going to, but she was like, it was, it wasn’t open yet, or it was lunch or something and it wasn’t open yet, and I was, like, devastated ‘cause I didn’t get to go to The Quiet Woman. Where, famously, Shannon Beador threw a plate across the, across the table at Kelly Dodd and said, This isn’t my fucking plate! And, like, was screaming at her. And, like, so many things have gone down. Back in the day, we used to film with Ramona at T Bar up on the Upper East Side all the time, where she would go to, like, hit on guys at the bar, and it was where all her friends were, and she was like, it was her Cheers, and we would –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – you know, we used to film there all the time. We, back in the day, RIP, we used to film at Beautique all the time, which was a –

Sarah: Oh.

Chris: – which was a restaurant that was across – right next to the Paris Theater, next to the Plaza, where they would, like –

Sarah: Yep.

Chris: – eat dinner and then go through the kitchen and then be in the back at this, like, club that was this exclusive secret club for them, and we would film there, and that became this, like, huge thing where, like, when Bravo fans would come to New York City, they would, like, tackle D and me and be like, I know that you’re a producer; like, where is Beautique? [Laughs] Like, and I would like to tell them, ‘cause they, like, wanted to go there so badly, because it was, like, such a character on the show, you know.

Like, all those things are, like, little pieces of character development that then make you know everything about this person, and it’s again, like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – there’s a power, and, and I tell the women that. Like, there is such a power of you being yourself and us knowing everything about you on camera that even A-list celebrities who, in theory, have way more star power than you do don’t have.

Sarah: ‘Cause that’s intimacy!

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: Knowing that much about somebody is intimacy, and I know a lot of people online talk about paranorm-, parasocial – paranormal, hah! That…

Chris: Yeah. Paranormal – that, that is paranormal, but yes.

Sarah: Paranormal parasocial relationships –

Chris: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: – where you know everything about ghosts and vampires. The parasocial relationships that you have when that, that intimacy is one-sided: I know all of this about you; you don’t know me –

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – but I feel like I know you. That, that imbalance is part of what is the problem with parasocial relationships, because that’s intimacy! That is a form of intimacy.

Chris: And, like, the women will go somewhere, and someone will be like, Oh my God, can you believe this? Like, like, like, they say, like, it’s, you have to really get used to it. Because it’s like, imagine someone, a random person walking up to you on the street and being, knowing every single intimate detail of, like, some fight you had with your friend. You’d be like, What?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: You’d be, like, terrified. That’s terrifying, right?

Sarah: ‘Cause you’ve skipped all of the social cues of Hi, how are you? Small talk, where’d you come from? How are you? It’s like, No, I know this deep emotional pain that you’ve suffered…

Chris: Yes!

Sarah: – talk about it. You’re jumping right to gra-, like a graduate level, and you are like a first day college freshman.

Chris: Sure. And that’s –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: There’s a, there is a power in that somewhere –

Sarah: There is absolutely a power –

Chris: – you know.

Sarah: – in that.

Chris: Yeah. 

Sarah: I, my interview today on my show – my show; my episode dropped today – is with Dr. Jodi McAlister, who is an Australian scholar of romance and also The Bachelor. She studies The Bachelor.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And her trilogy is set in a fake Bachelor in Australia called Marry Me, Juliet, and one of the things she talked about was clock time and narrative time. Humans operate within clock time –

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – like half an hour, an hour, and we know how much a day is, a year is. Narrative time is how humans actually tell time, because there’s events that happen in your life that are the, the, sort of the markers, like the, the timestamps, basically, of your life. So you, in a relationship, as she put it, you meet. You like each other! Maybe you date. Maybe you have sex! Maybe you move in together. Maybe you don’t. Maybe you date for a while. But the markers of that progress of that relationship form narrative time.

Chris: Sure, okay.

Sarah: And so with Real Housewives, you have narrative time through whatever is happening in the season and whatever the conflicts or events are: the trip; the party; the, the dinner; the restaurant; the, we’re going on a walk; the packing. All of these timestamps form the narrative of a season, if I have that correct.

Chris: Yeah. Correct, yes.

Sarah: Right. So narratively speaking – and I don’t know how much you can talk about this – what is your role in developing that narrative for a season? Do you know in advance where it’s going to go, or do you follow along with what’s happening and have these timestamps planned out? Like, obviously no one’s going to spontaneously go to a resort in Panama. Like – [laughs] – somebody has to plan…coming!

Chris: No. I mean, and that’s, like, no secret that it’s like you know like three-fourths of the way through the show you’re going to go on a trip. Like, that’s, we, we, you know, we –

Sarah: Yes, exactly! It’s like The Bachelor!

Chris: We used –

Sarah: You stay on long enough to get them to pay for your trip.

Chris: We used to always have to, like, come up with all these reasons of why they would be going on a trip, and now I feel like we don’t even try anymore. Like, it’s, no one even –

Sarah: Where’s this going? It’s part of the show!

Chris: It, it doesn’t even matter. Like, no one even cares. Like –

Sarah: [Laughs] Yeah!

Chris: – the, that’s a time where aud-, the audience sometimes is like, We don’t need you to do this dumb storyline of why this, why we’re going on this trip that, like, we…

Sarah: My best friend’s –

Chris: – know is fake. Like, and they – yeah.

Sarah: – brother’s dog walker has a house in –

Chris: [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: – Panama, and it’s only available right now! That’s why! Yeah, I know.

Chris: And p.s., like, there are times when it’s like, Oh, my friend has this big house, or like, My friend is throwing this big party in Mi- – I think one time when we were in Miami once? It was like Ramona had her fr-, like, Ramona had a bunch of friends that were there, and her ex-husband was there, and we, she, we were like, Let’s just go to Miami rather than going somewhere in the Bahamas, ‘cause, like, one, easier, ‘cause it’s just a fli-, like, it’s just, you don’t have to go international is always easier. And then, two, like, it was something where it was like, there was all, there’s all these reasons to do it. We just didn’t have, like –

Sarah: Mm.

Chris: – it just was what it was, but it wasn’t like, I’m, like, going to be a, a guest star on this show, on the – you know what I mean? Or like, I’m going to be, you know, I’m, I’m building a house in this area; let’s go there? Like, sometimes, like, nowadays it’s like we don’t even need to really – I remember one year on New York we were like, Let’s just vote on where we should, let’s go on a trip; where should we go? And we just had, like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Chris: – vote on where they wanted to go, basically, and something, and it was like, yeah. But there are those, yes, of course, like, there are those machinations of the show which we know we’re doing, and it’s like we no longer need to pretend that it’s like this big shock that we’re going on a trip. However, it’s not that, like, we know at the end of the season this is going to happen again, and I wish, again, not scripted – everyone thinks it is, but it’s not – whereas, like, we don’t know, we might have so many things planned out, and again, when we’re, like, getting to the beginning of our season, we’re talking with them, What’s going on in your life? What is happening? What can we follow? Like, we’re finding out from them what they are doing, and so –

Sarah: Yes.

Chris: – someone is like, in this season of The Real Housewives of New Jersey, both Teresa and Melissa both had kids that were leaving to go to college, and we were filming, we started filming in August, and it was like, you know, end of August is like beginning of, like, you know, early September it’s like, you know, back to school! We all know it; we’ve all been it, done it, did it. Like, so we knew –

Sarah: Everybody go to Bed Bath & Beyond!

Chris: Yeah, we –

Sarah: Let’s go!

Chris: …for real. So they’re going back to school, and so, like, I know the date that that is. Like, I know –

Sarah: Yeah!

Chris: – the date that she has to, they, these girls have to move into their dorms, so, like, we’re building…

Sarah: Got your timestamp.

Chris: Of course, like, I know I need to film that that day, so, like, that is what it is. However, like, the, I’m not, like – and on this, you know, if they have these things that they’re doing, oh, like, this year – I’m just using this season of New Jersey as an example – like, Melissa’s cousin’s wedding is on this date, and Joe, her husband, is the officiant of the wedding, and so they want it to be, like, we want to cover that. Like, I know the date of that wedding, so I know that in a couple months we’re going to be filming that eventually, but, like, I don’t know what’s going to happen from now until then. I don’t know who’s –

Sarah: No.

Chris: – going to be invited to this wedding. I don’t know who’s going to be, like, want to go at that time. Like, there are times when we’re like, okay, at the beginning of the season we’re talking with them so much to be like, What are we filming with you? Like, what do you want to cover? Like, what is happening in your life? Getting to find out what –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – what they’re doing – and again, if something is like, a lot of times I’m like, Is that because you’re on The Real Housewives or because you own this business? And a lot of times if it’s because I’m on The Real Housewives, we don’t film it.

Sarah: Ages and ages and ages ago, the very, very first, very first Queer Eye [for the Straight Guy], like –

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: – twenty-odd years ago –

Chris: OG.

Sarah: – OG Queer Eye, somebody had forwarded me an invitation to apply, and I sent in an application for my husband, who I adore, but was pretty, pretty convinced that fashionable clothing was uncomfortable, and I took a picture of him and his closet, and I’m like, Look! Here’s Adam in the Land of Pleated Khaki Pants.

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: He was just starting his first job as a, as an attorney; we were in, we lived in Jersey City. So I applied to be on Queer Eye, and they were very interested in him, and it ultimately fell apart, (a) because he had just started a job and couldn’t take all that time off for filming –

Chris: Yeah. And he was an attorney –

Sarah: Also –

Chris: – [laughs] – again.

Sarah: And he was an attorney; he was an entry-level attorney. And the other problem was that you needed to have an event, because you needed to have a reason for them to be doing all this makeover business. And they’re like, So what is your event? And we were like – [mutters] – I don’t know. [More clearly] I don’t know; we could make something up. And they’re like, No, you cannot make something up. There needs to be something. Is your anniversary coming? No? Is it your birthday? No, those are all next year. Like, part of the problem was that we didn’t have something, a, a Why. We had no Why for this to be happening.

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: And no reason for there to be a big reveal. So ultimately it didn’t work out, and then when the show was a huge success we were like, We should have come up –

Chris: Yeah! Like, God damn it!

Sarah: – with something good, damn it!

Chris: Yeah, like, why didn’t we just lie to them? But again –

Sarah: Yeah, why did we – we could have lied better! We could have done it! [Laughs]

Chris: Yeah. So funny, so funny. But again, like, that’s exactly the point is, like, I don’t –

Sarah: Yes!

Chris: – I, like, if I’m like, Okay, yeah, you want to go to this fucking thing because they’re throwing it because you’re a Housewife? Like, stop. Do you know what I’m saying?

Sarah: Right.

Chris: Like, the number of times I’ve had that conversation of, like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – you’re, you have a backdoor deal with these people that, like, is not what I – you know what I mean? Like, I’m not doing it –

Sarah: This –

Chris: – you know?

Sarah: – tea company –

Chris: Yeah! [Laughs]

Sarah: – has invited you to a party, but actually you are the spokesperson – yeah, no, we’re not filming that.

Chris: Yeah. And again –

Sarah: …not giving you a free boost.

Chris: – sometimes it’s fun, and again, sometimes I, it’s like if they really are incessant about it, it’s like, Okay, then, like, let’s go and see, and then all the other women come and are like, You’re not even involved in this event. Like, what are you talking about? Like –

Sarah: What the fuck is this?

Chris: – you know, and that’s –

Sarah: This is all…

Chris: – there’s a time when that can be useful, but –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – it really…

Sarah: Catching them in the lie.

Chris: We’re always searching for the authenticity, even when they’re – I know that no one believes this, but it’s like we’re always searching for the reality of the situation outside of – and I’d rather not do something that might be a visual spectacle if I know that it’s not…

Sarah: Going to translate…

Chris: – real. You know what I mean? Like, yeah.

Sarah: – real. Yeah. Yeah. The real in Real Housewives has meaning.

Chris: It does have meaning.

Sarah: So one of my questions for you is going to be What are the biggest misconceptions about Real Housewives, but I think you’ve already answered that.

Chris: I feel like we’ve, I feel like we’ve… [Laughs]

Sarah: It is not scripted, there is not a plan, and it is as authentic as you can possibly make it.

Chris: And I think a way to prove that is, like, think about there’s times when, like, I mean, there are times when you see them, like, storm off and be like, I’m not doing this, and then you do see them go talk to the producers and be like, I’m now leaving; bye. Like, do you know what I mean?

Sarah: I’m so fucking pissed off…

Chris: Yeah, like, and that’s not orchestrated.

Sarah: It reminds me of when you were talking about the scene where one character walks into a store, and her heel gets stuck in the grate, and they pull it out, and then her, her nipple cover falls on the ground.

Chris: Amazing.

Sarah: This is all on camera.

Chris: This is Vick-, that’s Vicki and Tamra. Best scene of anything ever, and it’s, again, like, they were just doing a shopping scene to, like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – go shop for clothes and, like, talk about, like, the lunch they just had and like, Oh my God, can you believe that she said, like, that this happened? Or, like, What do you think about this? It was like a scene to just discuss a scene that had already happened, which, again, is like a, a needed part of the show, but also, like, it’s not, I mean, we’re not, they’re not going to the Ritz-Carlton. Do you know what I mean?

Sarah: No.

Chris: It’s like just at a random boutique shopping, but, like, just them entering the scene was so much funnier than anything else that happened, where, like, cameras – like, her, her heel gets stuck in, like, a, it’s in like a groove of a tile. She can’t move.

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: Then this one’s doing this, they’re falling over, and they’re just like a complete mess with each other, and it’s just so funny. And, again, those are the things that we, like, lean into so much because that was so real no – again, I didn’t, like, put Superglue on the ground to, like, get something to stick and…

Sarah: No, you weren’t pranking them.

Chris: No! And –

Sarah: There was no – the, the nip, the nip slip was accidental…

Chris: One time – I can talk about this – like, one time this aired, this aired so I can, it’s not, it’s not like it’s a secret, but recently on, this was, what, last year that we filmed it, and it aired last, like, in December. We went back to St. Barts and Dorinda, like –

Sarah: I’m so sorry for you, by the way.

Chris: – was in this – it was –

Sarah: You had to go back to St. Barts.

Chris: I know!

Sarah: I’m so sorry.

Chris: It was nice, but it was, it was the hottest I’ve ever been in my entire –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Chris: It was, we were there in June, and it was truly –

Sarah: Oh God!

Chris: – as I said, in Satan’s ass crack. Like, it was –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Chris: – so hot. And so we were there, and we filmed – Dorinda had this room where everything – it was like this, like, modern room with these, like, doors that blended into, like, the, the wall, and, like, it was either a door, everything was either a door or a closet door? And she…

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – also, her toilet was like in this weird top thing that was like technically the headboard of her bed, so for a while she couldn’t find the toilet in her room? And I also had no idea where it was, so I truly didn’t know where it was. I was like, I don’t know if you have a toilet, like. And, and she also just could never find anything, ‘cause everything, she thought, every time she went to go leave, it was a closet. Every time she went to go –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Chris: – find something in the closet it was the, it was the door. Like –

Sarah: I’m crying! [Laughs]

Chris: – filmed like six scenes of her just wandering around her room, like, look- – and one of them aired, and she just didn’t believe, it was like, I can’t get out of my room. [Laughs] Like – and it is such a thing of, like, you go to these, like, expensive, like, “expensive,” like, luxury resort, like, like…

Sarah: Yes.

Chris: – things, and then you realize, like, they’re actually pieces of junk that they’ve just built, like, as cheaply as possible, and it’s like – and the house was beautiful; it wasn’t, like, in, I’m in no way saying it was junky, but it was like this thing where it was like, Ooh, this is the cool, sleek, like, engineering that we’re going to do in this room, and in reality it’s just, like, not fun to…

Sarah: I can’t find the door!

Chris: I can’t get out of my room! [Laughs]

Sarah: This is, this poorly engineered for humans. It looks great, but I can’t get – it’s like an, it’s like when you see one of those rooms designed by AI and you’re like, But where are the stairs going? Yeah.

Chris: Yeah! [Laughs] Like, into, like, into the bed. Like, yeah. Like –

Sarah: They’re going – why are the stairs going into the sink? I don’t understand!

Chris: Yeah, yeah. And it’s, and there’s so much of that, of, like, those funny things that, again, are just like, I didn’t get, like, I didn’t think someone was going to get lost in here, but we’re, we, this is hilarious, and so I’ll film this for thirty minutes and wait to – like, I’ll just keep rolling until you can find out how to get out of the room.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Chris: Like, until – you know, it’s those kinds of things that are so fun about it.

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: And again, that’s real, and that’s way funnier than me scripting, like, She can’t find her way out of her bedroom! You know what I mean? Like, it just happens, and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: That’s way funnier than her, like, doing something else that I already had planned for her doing that I thought –

Sarah: Yes.

Chris: – was going to be funny, you know?

Sarah: Absolutely. Do you edit, too? Are you part of the –

Chris: No.

Sarah: – edit pro- – you don’t do any post-production –

Chris: Nope.

Sarah: – you just do the filming.

Chris: I watch it on TV like everyone else.

Sarah: Oh wow! So you don’t know what the end product of your thirty minutes of Where the hell is the door? How that will end up –

Chris: No.

Sarah: – on the show.

Chris: Or if it’ll even be in the show.

Sarah: Wow! Is that, is that hard to relinquish that? ‘Cause you have so much –

Chris: Um –

Sarah: – influence on the narrative, but you don’t have an influence on the finished product. Like, you don’t have a say and nonono, you have to keep this; I know this is good.

Chris: It, it goes through so many rounds of people way above me that…

Sarah: You just sort of let it go?

Chris: – it’s like, it just is what it is.

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: Yeah. You just have to – it goes off to a fantasy world that I don’t know anything about, and I just have to, like, that’s no longer my job. You know what I’m saying?

Sarah: Absolutely.

Chris: Like, I put it, I put it all out on the field, you know what I mean?

Sarah: Yep.

Chris: Like, I went to the football stadium and I did the game, and I, then I just pack up my things and leave. And then that’s someone else’s job to, like, figure out what the deal is, yeah.

Sarah: And that’s someone else’s committee; I’m not on that committee.

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: That’s kind of liberating, it sounds like.

Chris: It is. It is.

Sarah: Like, you get to do all the fun part and the in-person part and be like, All right, here is many hours of footage. Please make a show. Bye!

Chris: Bye! Yeah.

Sarah: Thank you!

Are there any books that you are reading that you would want to tell people about? Or books that you want to tell people to read?

Chris: Yes. My friend’s book, Chelsea Devantez’s book –

Sarah: Yes!

Chris: Yeah. I Shouldn’t Be Telling You This: (But I’m Going to Anyway). It’s a memoir. It is so raw and devastating and hilarious at the same time and amazing, and I love her so much, and it is, I told, I had breakfast with her the other day, and I told her, From reading your book, I feel that I know you on the level that I know that, the Housewives that I work with.

Sarah: Wow!

Chris: I said, I feel like I know you at that level that I know how you’re going to react to things before I already, before you will react to them? And I know so much about your psyche, like I do the people I work with? And I was like, And, like, if that isn’t the mark of a good book, I don’t know what is.

Sarah: For sure! ‘Cause you don’t get that from most memoirs. Most memoirs are –

Chris: No.

Sarah: – Here’s the version I want you to know, whereas –

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: – a truly visceral, vulnerable memoir is something very special.

Chris: Yeah. That’s, I mean, that is, I mean, truly amazing. Like, it’s a truly amazing book, and I want everyone to read it.

Sarah: And it’s a, it’s got a great title. It’s I Shouldn’t Be Telling You This: –

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: – (But I’m Going to Anyway).

Chris: And you’ll find out why that’s the title like page one of the book. Yeah.

Sarah: This is the one she had a lot of challenges from her publisher about, right?

Chris: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Sarah: Wow.

Chris: And, like, when you open it up, like, most of the first chapter is completely redacted.

Sarah: Yikes!

Chris: Yeah. But it’s, again, done in a way, when I got my advanced copy of it, I, like, called her, like, crying, being like, This is the most genius thing you’ve ever done in your life, by still telling the story and showing that, like, they weren’t legally letting you do it.

Sarah: Wow.

Chris: It’s incredible.

Sarah: And that’s fundamentally also what we’ve been talking about.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: You know, you want the real, you want the vulnerable, you want to –

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: – access these people on an authentic level, and there are a lot of things, I think, standing in between us as people and presenting ourselves authentically. It could be dangerous to be yourself! You could be, you could be in mortal peril for being who you are. Or you could be told, We’re going to get sued or I’m going to get sued, so you don’t get to talk for my comfort. It’s more comfortable for me if you don’t be your authentic self, and –

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: – a lot of what you do with unscripted television is allow a channel for people to be themselves in a way that, like you said, in the, at the beginning, that people who are women of this age and this demographic, they don’t, they don’t get roles in scripted, but they do get roles in unscripted. They do get to show themselves to the public.

Chris: And think about the fact that, like, these women, yes, are these women loud? Are they mean sometimes? Are they conniving sometimes? Are they, are they villains sometimes? Do they do things on purpose just to get back at someone sometimes? Yes. But why aren’t women allowed to do that –

Sarah: Yeah.

Chris: – elsewhere? And, like, why can’t women be upset and not be the butt of a, the joke? Like, there’s a part, again, when they’re, when they’re freaking out and it is funny, but then at the same time you do feel for them, and you’re like, How dare this person say this to them when they had their back on this thing? Or they, This person was there for them when their, like, mother died and blah-blah-blah, and now you’re trying to say that they weren’t? That’s, like, again, all things that we deal with as people.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: And, like, you’re al-, that person’s allowed to be upset and be mad and be ugly and be gross and be – you know what I mean? It is a ver- – I mean, not to get on, like, a feminist soapbox, but, like, it is showing women from a very three-dimensional place and not just the wife of the main character who’s, like, rubbing, you know, lotion on their elbows at night and saying Tim Allen/Kevin James? Like, you should have done this!

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Do you know what I mean?

Sarah: Yep.

Chris: There’s a Let them –

Sarah: Not a supportive foil. They are the main character.

Chris: And –

Sarah: And they’re allowed –

Chris: And – 

Sarah: – to be messy!

Chris: Messy. And, and raw and real and, like, I mean, say what you want, and there’s much to say, but, like, there’s a scene – I keep going back to The Real Housewives of Orange County, but there’s a scene where they’re playing, I think it was, it, wasn’t it Bun-, the Bunco night? But it was like, they were doing something, and I think Heather’s house? Someone kept trying to call Vicki’s cell phone, and they couldn’t get through, and then – it was her daughter – and then, like, eventually someone’s like, Oh, Vicki, like, the phone at, like, Heather’s house phone is ringing, and it’s for you. And she goes over to the phone, and she answers the phone, and she says, Hello, and then you just watch her drop to her knees and start screaming, and she finds out that her mother has died. Like, you watch it happen on camera, and there’s something so, I’m, like, getting, I’m, like, getting emotional just thinking about it because it’s like you watch her in that moment where, like, that moment that has so many times become like a fictionalized, like, narrative thing where they find out someone is dead and have to react. Like, you watch someone’s real reaction happen to that, and it’s, like, absolutely bone-chilling.

Sarah: And that is, that is a real-life narrative timestamp.

Chris: Yes.

Sarah: We will go through a loss like that of someone –

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: – who has been a part of our lives since we were little. We all go through that moment, and it sucks. But it’s also –

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: – it’s messy. And there’s all this, women also face a lot of judgment? You know, how we’re supposed to act; how we’re supposed to react in public.

Chris: Mm.

Sarah: We have to react –

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – perfectly; we have to have the exact –

Chris: Yes, be nice.

Sarah: Yes.

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: Be kind; be nice; put on a good face; pretend like things don’t bother you? Like, no! Shit bothers me all the time, and I’m very messy.

Chris: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Sorry.

Chris: And it’s, and it’s, it’s, like, what, what else could you want? I mean, you know what I mean, not that it’s like we delight in this woman’s pain, but, like –

Sarah: That’s what the Real part –

Chris: – ‘cause that’s not it at all, but, like, but to watch, like, that happen, and then the rest of the season she’s living through, like, burying her mother and talk-, thinking about her im-, her, her mortality and thinking about, like – it’s all these things that we would have on, like, back in the day, like a Showtime drama like Nurse Jackie or like Dexter or like Breaking Bad or that, like – these are all themes that we have in these scripted shows that some actor’s, like, emulating when it’s like we have this really, really happening right now in real time.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. And grief is, is hard and exhausting –

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and makes you tired and, and makes all of the, like, sort of effluvia of life just drop away, because you are in such a raw, emotional state.

Chris: And part of the power is, like, okay, when that happens on Nurse Jackie, like, then Edie Falco’s like, All right, scene done. Like, yes –

Sarah: All right, scene; guys, thanks. The, good, good take.

Chris: Yeah, like –

Sarah: I’m going to go, go to the trailer now. Yeah.

Chris: Bye! And again, we also know that, like, the, whoever, her, like, mom died in the show is not a real – like, that person really didn’t die, and it was just fake for the show.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: And that was, like, a scripted thing. Whereas, like, in real life, this person moves through and then, like, goes on the internet, and all these people are like, I’m so sor- – like, that’s real, and that’s a real part of their life that they’re living through and have the fan reactions to, like, help them. Or someone comes on and talks about any illness that they have, or someone –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – comes on and talks about that, like – there is such a real reaction to that –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Chris: – that, like, people feel seen for the first time. You know what I mean? Oh, my kid went through this too, and no one’s supposed to talk about it, and it’s just something that I deal with alone in silence, and instead you’re dealing with it out loud right now, and, like, so many people relate to that, where, like, that doesn’t happen on a scripted show.

Sarah: No. No. That, the Real of Real Housewives is real.

Chris: Yeah.

Sarah: Where can people find you if you wish to be found?

Chris: Oh brother! If you’re not done listening to me flap my gums for so long –

Sarah: Seriously, I could record –

Chris: – you can find me – [laughs] –

Sarah: – for another hour. I have had such a great time. I could, I could listen to this for hours and hours and hours. I find it fascinating, and I also am really impressed by what you do, because what you do is really hard, to create a space for all of these people, with camera people and lighting people and, you know, the person with the clipboard and the person with the headset! To create an intimate environment when all of that is happening is really hard! And to do all of that –

Chris: Mm-hmm, it –

Sarah: – emotional labor to create something that so many people love is really hard work!

Chris: Thank you. That’s very nice of you to say.

You guys can find me @thechrisderosa. My show is called Fixing Famous People. Like I said earlier, the Instagram handle is just @fixingfamouspeople.

Sarah: It’s fabulous; I love it. Every Wednesday.

Chris: It’s, it’s, I’d say that it’s when I, Dominick and I get to be the Housewives for once – [laughs] – on our show. And we get to be off the wall and not the safe haven for everyone else, but actually get to be depraved and crazy.

And I’ve started to do some podcast consulting, which I’m growing slowly but surely, but I –

Sarah: Can recommend!

Chris: – don’t have a…yet, and, but you’ve been, the reason that we met is ‘cause you’re one of my clients, and –

Sarah: I am!

Chris: – has been so great, and so anyone that wants to talk about it, I basically can either talk about a show that you don’t have yet or, like I did with your podcast, kind of come on and be like, What can we do? You know what I mean? What, what kind of things do I see that we can improve on?

Sarah: What is the next level, and how do you get there?

Chris: Yeah, you can just DM me @thechrisderosa on Instagram for right now.

But yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been really fun.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you again to Chris DeRosa for making time to talk to me about his job, which I imagine he probably gets a lot of interview requests, ‘cause, do you know how many podcasts there are about The Real Housewives? There are so many! There’s so many podcasts with the Housewives themselves talking about stuff, and then people talking about the – it’s kind of like a whole podcast industry. It’s really cool, but I am very thankful that Chris took time to talk to me about his job, and I hope you enjoyed this conversation.

And I’m very curious: are you a Real Housewives fan? Was this, was this, any of this surprising to you? I think that there is an overlap of romance readers and Real Housewives fans because both shows subvert and confront stereotypes about women and sexuality, and a lot of reality TV is about making hidden motivations visible and articulated, and a lot of romance is about making feelings that we would most likely want to conceal, because they’re vulnerable feelings like love or arousal or attraction, we want to make those visible and articulated in romance as well, so I think that’s part of why there’s an overlap, but I’d be really curious to know what you think. I’ve had a great time exploring this, and I hope you have as well.

I also want to thank you for the reviews. If you like the show, may I humbly request that you leave us a review. Now, I am on an Android device, and I use Pocket Casts when I listen to podcasts, and Pocket Casts just announced ratings. There aren’t reviews, but you can give rev-, you can give a rating; you can give a star rating. So I’m having a really good time going in and rating all the shows that I like so much. And if you are on Pocket Casts and you like our show, if you would give us five stars, I would really appreciate it! Reviews and ratings help shows tremendously, and let me tell you, if I wanted to do a deep dive into the world of podcast stats, that would just be, that would be endless. It would be just never-ending weirdness, because podcast stats are a strange and terrifying universe, but I also know that one of the best ways to talk about a show and get other people to see or learn about a show is to review it.

Reviews help a lot, and I love to celebrate our reviewers. I also want to thank LivelyPsyche, who called us clever and interesting. LivelyPsyche, you too are clever and interesting.

I always end each episode with a terrible joke, and this joke is from JF Hobbit. Hello! This is really bad. Like, I say that every week, but this is really bad. I’ve already inflicted this on people; that’s how I know it’s delightful.

What do you get if you give a Japanese pigeon marijuana?

What do you get if you give a Japanese pigeon marijuana?

You get a haiku.

[Laughs] I, I – it’s just so bad! High coo! Thank you, JF Hobbit. It’s so bad.

On behalf of everyone here, including Kate, who’s eating really loudly – thank you, Katie – we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll see you back here next week.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

High coo! [Laughs]

[end of music]