[00:00:00] ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I’m Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that’s dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? Every week we talk all things books and reading and give you the information you need to choose your next read.

There are so many books you could be reading, which ones are right for you? This is why we are here. We are here for you in a big way with our upcoming sixth annual Fall Book Preview. That is happening on Wednesday, September 18th. We hope you’ll join us.

Our Fall Book Preview experience includes a live 90-minute unboxing event and our 12-page digital PDF Fall Book Preview booklet.

[00:01:00] In these two formats, we lay out our 35 selections for fall reading season. I said “our”. They’re mine. My 35 selections for fall reading season, plus some extra perks besides in that booklet, like our Big Books of Fall, in which I sneak in a dozen titles that are going to be everywhere this season that we think you are going to want to know about and know about early so you can get in your preorders, your library holds request so you can think about what you want your reading life to look like this season.

At our 90-minute unboxing, I walk you through the titles one by one and tell you a little bit about it, who it’s for, help you decide if it might be right for you in the season, or because of the time of year, if it’s right for another reader in your life, as gifting season is approaching faster than I’m entirely comfortable with. But we always love to talk about the books any time of year.

To participate, go to ModernMrsDarcy.com/fbp. That’s for Fall Book Preview. There are three ways to join us. If you’re not a member of one of our communities, go to ModernMrsDarcy.Com/fbp to get our ala carte option. This is a standalone ticket to the event. It gets you the replay, live access if you want it, that digital PDF booklet that’s super, super helpful. And no obligation. Nothing else you need to do. No ongoing membership. Easy breezy.

[00:02:17] We haven’t always offered this option, but we did so by popular request. And wow, you weren’t kidding. This is a super popular option and we’re happy to offer it.

Our Fall Book Preview experience is also an included perk for members of our What Should I Read Next? Patreon community and our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club. Whether you’re already a member, thank you for supporting us in this way, or join for this event and going forward.

This is a free perk that is included with your membership, and it is a steal of a deal. You get Fall Book Preview, Spring Book Preview, our team best books of the year, Summer Reading Guide access. Access to our premier events is just one way we say thank you for supporting us in this way.

So at Fall Book Preview, I’m sharing titles I have read and loved, some titles I can’t wait to read, and noteworthy releases for this publishing season. And what a publishing season it is going to be. Fall is always big for books, but 2024 is exceptionally good.

[00:03:14] The timing is a little weird because it’s an election year, but the titles themselves, especially September and October, are crammed with good stuff. I will share why I picked these titles and offer tips to help you decide which ones belong on your to-be-read list. This is always a great bookish time. Go to ModernMrsDarcy.com/fbp to join us. We’d love to have you.

And thank you so much for considering patronizing with What Should I Read Next? Patreon or Modern Mrs. Darcy? Book Club. Times are weird in the podcasting landscape, and your direct financial support makes it possible for us to do what we do. So thank you so much. That’s ModernMrsDarcy.com/fbp.

Readers, if you enjoy a good campus novel for fall, you are going to love today’s conversation. I’m talking books with Karen Gold, the academic dean at the oldest independent boarding school in the country.

Karen loves a good campus novel, of course, and she even teaches a course on them. You know we will talk about that today, along with her other experience in the classroom as an English teacher.

[00:04:19] But she also love stories that span generations and highlight the beauty in the mundane and especially the messiness of the human experience. But Karen’s real dilemma today isn’t finding the titles she’ll want to read next. What she’s really grappling with is a format struggle. I think a lot of you are going to relate to this in some capacity.

Karen was always a die-hard “I must hold the book in my hands for it to count,” reader, until she got an iPad and then a Kindle, and really got accustomed to reading on a screen. These days she defaults to the ease of reading, despite having shelves full of physical books that she really does want to read.

She’s not sure what to do here. She doesn’t want to stop reading, but she’s found that it presents certain difficulties. Karen has asked around for help with this issue before, and she hasn’t really been able to find anything that’s helped.

So today, with fear and trembling, going where others have previously failed, I’m going to give it a go and see if we can help her think through how to move forward.

[00:05:21] I love conversations like this and I’m excited to share this conversation with you. Let’s get to it!

Karen, welcome to the show.

KAREN GOLD: Thank you, Anne. I’m thrilled to be here.

ANNE: Oh, I’m so excited to talk today. Can we tell our listeners that you sent a good for morale, really ego-boosting reply when we read your submission and emailed you and said, “Would you come on the show?”

KAREN: I was sitting next to my husband and I think my reply to you was, can you hear me screaming from Massachusetts? And I screamed so loud.

ANNE: The caps lock was on.

KAREN: I did that intentionally.

ANNE: Oh, I know. I know you did. I know you did.

KAREN: I’m so excited and so thrilled. I think it took my husband a couple of minutes to recover from my scream. But it’s really exciting. You’re such a part of my week. People who know me know I love a routine. So I love my Tuesdays when I can listen to the podcast. So it’s really a thrill.

[00:06:21] ANNE: Well, that is so kind. Thank you. Our whole team got a kick out of that and we appreciate it. I’m so excited to talk today.

So we got to read your submission at What Should I Read Next? HQ. But tell our listeners about yourself. We want to give them a glimpse of who you are.

KAREN: I am an English teacher and the academic dean at a school north of Boston called the Governor’s Academy. It’s actually one of the oldest boarding schools in the country. Like 1763. I would like to say I’ve just been here a long time. Not since 1763, but a long time. Closing in on 30 years. It’s a pretty wonderful place to be on North Shore.

I have three young adult sons, one in Nashville, one in Boston, one in Chicago. And of course, I have my beloved black lab, Olive. My husband and I probably treat her with more care and concern, maybe than we even did with our kids, they would suggest. But that’s what my life looks like here.

[00:07:21] ANNE: From one lab family to another. Daisy’s a yellow lab. Not sure if I’ve ever said that specifically. She says hi. But we had a chocolate lab before that.

KAREN: Labs are the best. They are the best.

ANNE: Karen, we thought it was so interesting how you described life in your community. You specifically said that it was like living in a village.

KAREN: It really is. We sort of look like a village with the brick buildings and lots of trees and whatnot. But I joke and say sometimes I could go a week without leaving campus because it’s like we’re a little town. All of our needs are met. I work here. Many of my closest friends are here. We can eat in our wonderful dining room and send our mail.

It’s just a wonderful community and a rare opportunity to live with and teach, obviously, your students. Also, my house is attached to a boys’ dormitory where I’ve served as a dorm parent. It’s a beautiful place to walk and talk.

[00:08:29] When I think about my relationships here, not only with students but with my colleagues, I think, wow, we’ve shared a lot of life together. We’ve raised our children together and attended weddings and supported each other through aging parents and illness and celebrated and comforted, which is not to say this is ideal. We are human beings. February in a boarding school is not to be messed with because everybody’s tired of each other. But it’s a really rare opportunity, I think, in our culture to live in community. It’s something I really value.

We’re about to start on a new year. Of course, it’s bittersweet because summer is wonderful, but I just love the routine and the rhythm of a school year and getting to know new students and welcome new people to our community.

ANNE: That feels like a really interesting backdrop against which to discuss your reading life. What does that look like at this point in your life?

[00:09:34] KAREN: First, I love to hear stories. Being a teacher and living with people, I love to hear about just the daily victories and defeats of adolescents and watch them grow. I think when I read I love to read about the complexities of life.

I always say to my students, One of the reasons we read Shakespeare is because he understood human nature, that it’s messy. We are messy people. Nobody is all good or all bad. We sometimes make bad decisions and there are consequences, but we have meaningful relationships and friendships and daily joys. And I think that’s what really informs a lot of what I read.

One of the things I know about myself, and I think this has been true since I was a child with my nose in a book all the time, is that I love reading about little communities or little subcultures.

[00:10:34] And for a while, I loved to read about religious subcultures, about Shakers or Mormons or the Puritans. I love to read about little towns where people are living their lives, but that there’s a real flavor to it and an interconnectedness of life and the ups and downs of it. That’s something I’m really interested in. That human experience that is a glamorous or isn’t perfect, but just really interesting.

One of the classes I will be teaching in the fall is American Studies. It’s a class I taught for a long time, where we connect the history of America with the culture and the literature of that time. I love to know the real stories behind just what we read in a book and the human lives that were being led, including the mundane.

[00:11:34] I tried to teach my kids and my students, sometimes life is boring. It’s part of the mundane of life is you pay bills, you get up, you clean your house, you do laundry. Sometimes it’s wonderful and sometimes it’s not. I don’t know if I’ve imparted that to them. But work is called work for a reason, and sometimes relationships are hard.

I love to read about that ebb and flow of life in a family, or in a relationship, or in a friendship. Or I can’t believe I’m in the later part of my career. I don’t feel like I’m almost 60, but I am. I’m going to become a grandmother this year. It’s mind-blowing

But I look back at who I was 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and I think, wow, there are a lot of seasons in life. It hasn’t always been pretty or easy, but it’s part of that tapestry of our lives that I love to think about.

[00:12:34] I love to hear other people’s stories, especially women’s stories of being a mother, and then what do you do after that when you’re an empty nester, and how careers and work transforms and changes as you go through, and marriages and friendships.

I had wonderful parents, and then I lost them both within two years and that changing role of being their caregiver and whatnot. That was really a profound experience in my life that I had never thought about before. I think all those things inform what I like to read, the messiness, the truth, the mundane of it all.

ANNE: I’m noticing how you’ve talked about the things that you find interesting, and also you’ve used the word “mundane” several times. And I am thinking like, Gosh, isn’t it true that a great author can make the mundane so interesting?

[00:13:31] Karen, I imagine that we have quite a bit of overlap in what we enjoy reading. I’m not sure that that’s true for every reader, but I know it’s true for many readers. And it’s shedding a little bit of different light on the books you love that you told us that you loved on your submission, so I’m curious to hear more. I would love to hear more about your experience teaching.

KAREN: I was that kid growing up that I would line up my stuffed animals and sometimes kids in the neighborhood and I would have a chalkboard, and I would talk at them and teach them in the backyard. I’m not sure it was as fun for the neighborhood kids as it was for me.

But I love that connection of watching an adolescent say, Oh, I’m not a very good reader, or I don’t really like to read, and then helping them find a book that they really love.

[00:14:31] I am a big believer in helping kids become lifelong learners, and so I spend the first 10 minutes of every class that I teach in reading, and I allow them choice. I’m a big believer in choice, right? They’re not reading The Tempest by Shakespeare at that time. They’re reading something that’s really interesting to them.

ANNE: One of my kids read The Tempest for the first time this summer.

KAREN: How did that go?

ANNE: They were not enthused.

KAREN: Nice beach reading, right? I want students to discover that reading is an escape and that it doesn’t always have to… I don’t mean to beat up Shakespeare. It doesn’t always have to be great literature, right? Sometimes I read things that maybe other people would be like, I can’t believe you’re reading that. And then I read great literature.

It’s like food. Sometimes you want a really healthy dinner, and sometimes you have to have some junk food. I want kids to have a good association with reading, and of course… and have it be a daily habit.

[00:15:33] I had one student describe it once… who was a bit of a reluctant reader, said, “I actually really like it, reading for 10 minutes. It’s like a meditation.” That made me feel so good. Our lives are so busy, and maybe they’re not curling up with a book because they have sports and they have their homework and all that, but we also know that good readers become better writers, right?

I think it really helps them read different voices and experiences without feeling like, Oh, I’m reading this because my teacher made me. Obligation removes desire. I find sometimes with teenagers, or maybe even adults, I don’t always like to be told what I have to read. That’s a big part of my work.

I just love seeing them find something that’s interesting or engaging to them. It’s a lot of fun. A friend of mine said, “Well, you get to read, write, talk, and laugh every day” because most of the time we really do.

[00:16:32] Last fall, I designed an elective called Boarding Schools, a novel approach. We read-

ANNE: I want to take that class.

KAREN: It was so much fun. Of course, they were able to connect with it because they’re at a boarding school. Several of my colleagues came in to talk about their own boarding school experience. I did not go. I went to a public school, so not my experience. But it was just really interesting conversations of coming of age, but also ultimately living in community and the years in high school.

I always say, It’s not the end of your story. It feels catastrophic or it feels so profound when you’re in high school. God bless them. I don’t want to be a teenager now. But then there’s more to the story. That was really a lot of fun.

ANNE: Okay, we’re going to come back to that. Listeners, if you’ve never looked at our guest submission form, you might not even know this, but we always ask you about a problem you’re having in your reading life or what you would like to be different in your reading life, or is there a special topic you would really like to get into with Anne?

[00:17:41] Karen, we asked you what you would like to be different and I was really intrigued by your answer. I’m excited to get into it. In your own words, what’s going on?

KAREN: Okay, so this seems like a very strange problem for an English teacher to have. I’ve tried to seek counsel from other people with no solution. Here’s my problem. Several years-

ANNE: Oh no, now I’m nervous-

KAREN: Anything is better than nothing.

ANNE: …to go where others have failed.

KAREN: Several years ago, I got an iPad. Of course, I started to read on my iPad and I found that I absolutely loved it. It just felt like I could fly through books. Then I also got a Kindle, and I also really liked that. I liked being able to stick it in my purse. I could be waiting for something or at a doctor’s appointment or sitting outside, and I could read my Kindle.

[00:18:39] That’s all well and good. But the problem is now I don’t really want to read all the books that sit sadly on my bookshelves. Of course, when I’m teaching, I have a text that is probably dog-eared and well-annotated and falling apart sometimes, but my preference has really been to just read on a screen, which seems like not a big deal. I’ve had people stare at me blankly and be like, “Well, just stop. Just read a book.”

I find it hard to pull myself away. And I was always that person maybe 10 years ago, I’d be like, oh, I need to feel the pages in my hand. Well, I don’t feel like that anymore, and I’m not really sure what happened. Maybe my eyesight has gotten worse, and so I love being able to adjust that. But there’s just something about it.

Of course, there are two problems. One, I can’t remember half of the titles that I read. There’s a blank. I’m like, “Oh, I have to think for a minute.” But also when I’ll say to a colleague or a friend, “Oh, I just read the best book,” they’re like, “Oh, are you finished? Can you give it to me?” And then I have to say, “I’m sorry. It’s on my Kindle.”

[00:19:52] That is something that I kind of miss about it, but I have a really hard time just picking up a paperback now, and I always feel a little bit sad, and I don’t always confess. Like when someone says, “Oh, you’re going to love this book,” I just can’t. I’m just not reading it. So I’ve never heard this problem before on your show, so I don’t know if you have any suggestions.

ANNE: All right. Let’s see what we can do. First, thank you for bringing this to the show. This is a safe place to talk about what’s troubling you in your reading life. I want to, gosh, I want to say stipulate. My background is in legal, and sometimes it comes out in the therefore, whenceforth, whereas. Everything in me cringes, like, oh, my gosh. That’s not what people say.

So I would like to stipulate we’re just having a conversation about what works for you and what doesn’t, minus the judgments. We can bring judgments and what you wish things were like and what you feel like you should do in your reading life. We can talk about that. But let’s just start with the data. What’s working for you about reading on a screen?

[00:20:57] And I also want you to know, I said this is a safe place. Now, I don’t have to relate to what you’re saying to have, I hope, a, like, frank and fruitful conversation about it, but I am somebody who tried to tap a paperback to turn the page just in the past week. So I hear you.

KAREN: I think maybe what works for me is the immediacy of it, right? I mean, if I put my glasses on, I can even read a book on my phone. I don’t tend to, but as opposed to lugging around one more thing in my bag or, you know, the… I have a bookshelf of hardbacks, you know, hardcover books that I just can’t even fathom hauling around. Now I used to. So I think there’s something about that it’s so contained.

I think my husband gets mad every time we have to move and he has to pack up books. So there’s just something very tidy and contained about it that I really like.

[00:22:02] ANNE: So you always have your book because you always have your screen.

KAREN: I always have something. Exactly.

ANNE: Okay. We’re going to step back from the “it’s hard to move a bunch of books” because that is a factor for your life… style. I always feel like a schmuck when I use the word lifestyle. But when it comes time to decide what to read next or sit down in the evening, you’re not thinking about moving a hundred.

KAREN: Correct.

ANNE: It’s fine. Okay. How do you interact with your iPad as a reader? Do you highlight, do you take notes?

KAREN: Honestly, I don’t. I sometimes say, “Oh, my iPad is my best friend. There’s so much.” Because I listen to podcasts. I listen to you. I love listening to things on it. I find my recipes on there. And then I just carry it around my house.

I don’t tend to take my iPad to my office or to my classroom, but I do always have a Kindle in my bag. Of course, like most of America, I typically have a phone, but wherever I am… you know, I read first thing in the morning and I often read before I go to bed at night. And there it is. I don’t have to search for it. I know where it is.

[00:23:13] ANNE: Yeah. So the highlighting isn’t a factor for you. The reason I’m asking is because for a lot of readers and I am becoming one of them, the ability to highlight and then have your highlights for all your books all in one place, or to have a list of your highlights on one page, or honestly, the way I highlight it’s on 12 different computer screen pages versus flipping through a book to get to them is a real feature.

KAREN: That’s right. Yeah.

ANNE: But there are drawbacks as well for a lot of readers. Like I can remember like, okay, that quote was about 60% into the book at the bottom left of the page and I can turn right to it. Also when I’m reading something that I really like about a physical book is I’m always very rooted in the story and where I am in the story.

On a Kindle, you can see that you’re at like 11%, but you don’t necessarily… like, does that include the appendix at the end? Does it include the preview for the author’s next book? Does it include a book club chat? It’s usually on a Kindle, not a print book where I’ll turn the page and be like, “Oh, it ended. That was the end.” So there are pros and cons to each and I’m trying to tease out what works for you.

[00:24:27] KAREN: I do think that I also like being able to say, Hmm, what am I in the mood for? Because not always, but often I’ll have a nonfiction and a fiction going. So instead of having to go and find the book, it’s right there. Like, do I feel like reading this novel or am I going to read this nonfiction or this biography that I’m reading?

So it’s maybe the efficiency. Again, I keep thinking of the word. It’s also contained. You know, it’s right there and quickly gratifying to me.

ANNE: Talk to me about decision fatigue. When I say that phrase, what comes to mind?

KAREN: Oh, I have to make a lot of decisions in my work. Not so much as an English teacher in that role, but I’m also the Academic Dean, which means I sort of manage the academic programs and whatnot here.

So sometimes we’re trying to figure out schedules and classroom spaces and curricular initiatives. And maybe there’s a colleague who’s struggling with something that I have to manage. And so I have to make a lot of decisions and I feel a little cluttered probably. By the end of the day, I have cognitive fatigue.

ANNE: Clutter was going to be our next topic.

[00:25:39] KAREN: I have cognitive fatigue, I think. So maybe that’s part of it, Anne is I… if it’s all in one place, I can say, “Hey, I’m not feeling that book right now,” and then I swipe and I go to the next one.

ANNE: I mean, to be clear, you’re postponing the decision when you reach for your screen to leave the house and not the specific book, but you do get to postpone the decision in a moment when you’re perhaps feeling harried.

KAREN: Exactly.

ANNE: Yeah. Okay. Now, talk to me about clutter more.

KAREN: Well, you know, you would not walk into my house and think I was a minimalist, but I often would say to, especially boys of the dorm, you know, the exterior reflects the interior, you know? What’s your exterior, what’s your dorm room looks like is maybe how you’re feeling inside. So I would always be like, “Why don’t we tidy up, and then maybe you’re going to feel better and be more, you know, engaged in everything.”

[00:26:36] So I do think that clutter is probably a part of it. Like right now I’m thinking about my bookshelf, which is even though I’m not reading most of the books in my… I have a built-in bookshelf downstairs. It does feel a little cluttered to me. And I almost feel like, gosh, I wouldn’t even know where to begin.

Again, that’s really different than how… there’s nothing I loved more, especially growing up, but even I’m going to say 15 years ago of just roaming through the library and being like, “Well, that looks good. I like that cover. That looks interesting.” And now I don’t really do that. Just go to my library on my Kindle.

ANNE: So you don’t need me to tell you this, but this is only a problem if it’s a problem for you. It doesn’t need to be a problem in the abstract. So these are some of the things I’m noticing.

I’m noticing how I’m remembering the stories we were sharing before we hit record on this episode. Oh, this reminds me we did a Patreon bonus in the month of August where I share what it’s like to record an episode. And I tell you more about what we talked about before.

[00:27:41] I have an actual recording with a recent guest who I asked her for permission to record our post-recording chit-chat where I basically give her a bunch of extra book recommendations and share it there. So listeners, if you’re interested, that is on Patreon right now.

But Karen, I’m remembering how you were talking about your kids and how you love parenting adult children, that it’s just the best. You love the stage. And I was telling you about how my family went to a soccer game the other night and there was a group of cousins in front of us who were so cute.

They were ages four to 10 years old. Like it was a rowdy stadium atmosphere so it was totally fine that they were like playing the, you know, the slap game and tickling each other. And Will and I were like, “Oh, they’re so cute and little.” And also we’re very happy to be here with our 14 and 17-year-old.

We have been through that stage. We really enjoyed it. We like where we are now. This makes sense. And that’s what I keep thinking of as you talk about how you miss the experience of reading in paper.

[00:28:44] So there’s a version of this conversation where we can talk about leaning into paper and what it might look like to read and how you could enjoy that experience again. But there’s also a version of this conversation that goes, “Those were great days that you had with your paper books and this is working for you right now and you are where you are for good reasons and that’s okay.” And you’re the only one who can answer that question.

KAREN: You know, it’s so interesting, Anne. I think you’re probably right. I think it’s the second one, you know. Maybe it’s not a problem. I mean, the one kind of unfortunate thing is the inability to share. Like I give lots. People are always asking, “Oh, what are you reading? What are you reading?” Or I’m asking them that.

And if I have the book and if I’ve read it on my Kindle, I’m not able to give it to my friend. Not the end of the world, but that’s maybe the one thing I miss, that passing back and forth of this is really good. But you know, you’re right. It’s less messy. That’s for sure.

[00:29:45] ANNE: Well, your answer to that question, where are you now, like, what format do you want to be reading in now or what formats determines how we go about solving those real problems that you’re experiencing reading on the screen. But those are problems to which the solution could be something other than changing the format you’re reading in.

You know, something we didn’t talk about was eyesight. You mentioned something that a lot of I imagine will hear themselves in and that is just being able to change the font size on the screen means the world in terms of accessibility and it makes it easier to read so they read more. Like, this feels like a win to me.

I just want to say that is a factor. That could be a factor for you. That is definitely a factor for a lot of readers and something that screens are great at.

KAREN: Yeah, I think it is. I mean, it seems like a contradiction because I, of course, I’m on my computer, you know, for my work and different things, and, you know, the fact that, that I go back to a screen. But it has a really different feel.

[00:30:42] Yes, I wear glasses now. I didn’t 10, 15 years ago, wear reading glasses. It actually feels less fatiguing than reading a book. So I think that’s a really important point.

ANNE: Again, we’re just having a neutral conversation about your experience, but you can continue to think about how much that does or doesn’t matter.

But let’s talk about loaning books. So I can see that this community aspect is important to you. I’m also toying with the idea that you’re imagining like a very rosy ideal scenario of what it looks like to loan somebody a book or to borrow a book. Because I know personally, maybe it’s just me, but many, many times I have loaned books to people that they have really wanted to read at the time that don’t get read before they’re returned. I’ve certainly done the same thing. So that’s a possibility.

Also, I’m wondering if the thing that they want is the book itself, packaged text, ready to go, or if you could send a screenshot of a beautiful cover.

KAREN: Oh, I love that idea.

[00:31:47] ANNE: A link to borrow it from the library.

KAREN: Yeah. I really like that. I do love that whole conversation of, oh, what have you been reading lately? And what have you enjoyed? And what’s your favorite book of the summer? I’m anticipating I’ll have that in the next few days as faculty come back to campus and they all know who the readers are and whatnot.

But I like that as a solution. It feels there’s something… and I’m not crying about this, but there is perhaps something isolating about just reading on a screen, but that’s a different way to think about it. Maybe a screenshot or something as opposed to that passing the paper back and forth or just saying, Oh, give it to another friend, which I used to often do. So I think that’s a really good idea.

ANNE: I do love and appreciate it when I’m talking books with someone I know and they send me a text or a note afterwards that says, Here’s that title we were talking about. You seemed interested. You’ve probably forgotten the title by now, which is probably totally true. And you can still have the book talk without… I’m kind of wondering if this is that dorm parent quality in you that’s like, we talked about this book, you liked it, let me make sure you have what you need to move forward as a reader. That’s really admirable.

[00:33:04] And also you can enjoy the book talk without giving the thing to the person. Or at least this is something to consider.

KAREN: Yeah, I like that idea. Because of course, we all forget, right? You’ve had lunch with somebody or gone for a walk, and then an hour and a half later you’ve completely forgotten whatever they recommended or they’re texting me, what was that again? So I like that idea.

ANNE: You also said something that’s so true about how it does take something away from the communal aspect of reading when you’re reading on a screen. I remember my doctor 20 years ago coming into the room where I was reading a Kindle and he said, “What are you reading?” And then he started musing about how he didn’t used to have to ask. Like used to be able to see the cover and go, “Oh, I’ve seen that” or, “Oh, what’s that about?” or “Oh, how’s your book?” But on the Kindle you have no idea what anyone is reading. And he missed that.

[00:34:01] KAREN: That’s really interesting. That’s a very good point.

ANNE: No, he’s not talking about his reading life. He’s talking about other people. But I am highlighting the communal, community aspect, the extroverted aspect of reading a print book.

KAREN: Yes, absolutely.

ANNE: So there’s not as much to be done about that. Now this is a tip that I recommend for your own sake, not for necessarily the greater reading good for us nosy readers. But that might be real.

So Brenna on our team is the one who clued me into the fact that you can pay… I have a Kindle. You can pay Amazon a little extra and enable the feature that shows the cover of the book you’re currently reading on your screen instead of an image or instead of… I mean, obviously, instead of an ad, you have to pay extra for this.

But she mentioned that it was really working for her because when her device was laying around, she could see the cover of the book she was reading and it served as a little visual cue like, you could be reading, you could be reading, which she really appreciated.

[00:35:00] KAREN: So interesting. I like that. I did not know about that either.

ANNE: Well, that’s a tidbit if anybody needs to know it. But you did mention one other problem that we haven’t addressed. And that is you said that you had a hard time remembering, I think titles of what you’ve been reading.

KAREN: Sure.

ANNE: Do you want to say more about that?

KAREN: It’s so intriguing to me how much talk there is sometimes about beautiful covers, that people are really drawn to a cover. And that’s not really something that draws me anymore. But even worse, I can picture the page, but sometimes because there’s less emphasis on what the cover looks like and visualizing the title and whatnot, I just can’t remember what I’m reading.

I’m talking something maybe a little not on the top five New York Times bestseller list, but I’m like, “Oh, I read that book. I think you would like it. But oh, I can’t even think of what the title is,” which is so strange to me. And I do think that’s not the end of the world, but it definitely is a factor in just not even remembering. Or people saying, “Who’s the author?” and I’m like, “No idea. I can’t remember.”

[00:36:11] ANNE: I definitely struggle with the “if I don’t see it, it doesn’t exist” phenomenon. There are other ways to come at this though. If you miss the experience of a book in your hands, I wonder if a print reading journal would give you some of that tactile experience in your reading life, but you wouldn’t need to leave the house with your print reading journal unless you thought, you know what I want to do? I want to go to the coffee shop and spend some time with my reading journal.

But when you’re flying out the door, you can grab your device that has all your books on it. Or if you want to lean into the digital aspect, you could keep a very simple or there are very complex reading journals and spreadsheets and all that. But you could have a drive doc with a list of titles you have read that you could refer to anywhere, anytime.

KAREN: That’s a really great idea. I’m a Patreon member and at times I’ll go back and look at that document that you all share. It’s so wonderful. So that’s a really good idea. Because I find that I forget. I read so much, especially in the summer or if I’m on a break, I just have a little more luxury to do that.

[00:37:24] ANNE: Karen, do you read more than one book at a time? It sounds like you do.

KAREN: Sometimes. I tend not to read two novels at the same time because it all merges for me. Obviously, different if I’m reading something on my own and I’m teaching The Great Gatsby. I’m going to still be reading Gatsby. I feel like I’ve probably memorized it at this point. But most of the time it would be a fiction, nonfiction.

ANNE: Fiction, nonfiction. Okay, that’s interesting. Well, I wonder how well this may work for you, but to any listener who’s thinking they want to read in print more, I’m wondering if you can’t think about it like adding another book to your format mix. Lots of readers read more than one book at a time and they’ll do it like I have a fiction, I have a nonfiction, I have an audiobook.

I wonder if you could have your book on your device, but also at any one time you have a book you’re reading in print. You leave it at home, you leave it on your nightstand, you leave it on the coffee table, wherever you find yourself wanting to read at home, you have a print book going.

[00:38:28] And if you stopped at a really exciting part when you were reading out in the world on your device, then come home and pick up your device and keep reading. That’s great. There’s nothing wrong with that. But you could know that you have a print option that’s been pre-chosen that you could pick up if you want that experience of reading in paperback.

Here’s an example of how that could look. I’ve been making my way slowly through an essay collection that I am really enjoying and also don’t necessarily want to pick up when I’m in the middle of something with like big narrative drive.

So in the mornings and the evenings and the occasional afternoon when I’m taking a break, I can sit down, it’s by my favorite yellow chair, I’ve got my beverage, I open it up and it’s ready for me to read a single essay. It’s the right size for a reading session. I am breaking the spine by using a pen that I love as a bookmark. I could just leave it right beside. That would be a really healthy adult readerly thing to do, but I don’t really care about the spine. It’s fine. So it’s ready and waiting for me to sit down and sink back into the middle of that reading experience.

[00:39:38] It’s both a blessing and a curse that you are the only person who can decide what the right path forward is for you. But if you miss the print reading experience enough that you want to have more of it than you have been lately, I wonder if that could be a way to bring that back into your life.

KAREN: I like that idea a lot. I could see how it could lend itself certainly to essays and to short stories or a book of poetry or something like that. Again, I keep going back to the word “contained”, right? It’s kind of like this neat, tidy experience. I think I could definitely try that.

ANNE: I think it’s really helpful in telling that you keep coming back to a couple words like “contained”. You can use that as your guide, as you’re thinking about this more and deciding how you do want to move forward.

KAREN: Yeah, I think you’re right. I think that’s right.

ANNE: Okay. We actually unpacked that a lot more thoroughly than I thought we would. What do you think? How are you feeling about that?

[00:40:41] KAREN: I feel pretty good about that. I really do. I’m going to try that.

ANNE: Okay. What’s your path forward? How are you feeling about your screen?

KAREN: I love my screen, but I like the idea of maybe shifting a little bit to an essay collection, a short story next to me to just have that snippet of something I’m really interested in. I think that could definitely work.

ANNE: I would love to hear an update after you’ve had some time to experiment.

KAREN: Sure. Absolutely.

ANNE: Karen, let’s get into your books.

KAREN: Okay. Oh yeah, there’s that.

ANNE: We are going to see if we can send you on your way with some good books to read next. Now, you have brought books to me to discuss. How did you choose these?

KAREN: Oh gosh, I’m going to tell you, you hear this all the time from your guests, but it’s really true. I had such a hard time.

[00:41:41] Maybe the books would be different, but as I look at this, because it was a little bit ago, I realized, Oh yeah, I love those books too. I know people say all the time, perhaps it’s like picking your favorite child or your favorite student, but I do really love these books.

I thought about how did they make me feel? What was it that was… I couldn’t tell you lines from the book, but I can tell you about how it made me feel, each one of these. That reading experience of understanding and connection with the characters, and again, that kind of messiness, complexity of being human and the stories we live within our own lives. I think each one of these holds that for me.

ANNE: Well, I’m excited to hear more. You chose three books you love, one book you don’t, and what you’ve been reading lately. What is the first book you love?

KAREN: The first book I loved is a book I think perhaps I heard about it from you, called The Road to Dalton by Shannon Bowring. This is a lovely novel set in Maine. And not in coastal Maine or the glamorous parts of ideal Maine, but this town and all of the people who are leading their messy lives. There’s tragedy in it, but then there’s also wonderful compassion and humanity.

[00:43:10] I think part of what I also love about this book is that the author… Of course, I had to go down the rabbit hole and be like, who is this lovely person? I believe this was her debut novel, which sometimes I’m a little skeptical about, but it was so delightful.

I believe Shannon Bowring is a librarian. I loved that story about her, that she probably… I could just envision her surrounded by books and working on her own novel. They’re characters that I remember and just the cycle and the routine of a year of living in this town. I really enjoyed it. I believe she has — I don’t know if it’s out yet — she has a new book coming.

ANNE: Yes, she does. How did this book make you feel?

KAREN: The book made me feel a great deal of, I guess, compassion and understanding toward human failings. There’s tragedy in it, but there’s also ways that people show up for each other in imperfect ways.

[00:44:19] There are secrets that are kept that maybe people actually in the town know, but they look the other way, and how people can be really petty, but they can also be so open-hearted and open-minded and compassionate when people need help. That’s what I loved about it.

Of course, there’s something very familiar because it’s set in New England. But again, it’s not an idealized version, but there’s still a wonderful charm and connectiveness that I really love.

ANNE: Ooh, I like that description. Karen, what is the second book you love and how did it make you feel?

KAREN: Oh, gosh. The second book is by Ann Patchett. Again, that’s really like trying to pick my favorite child because I’m just such a super fan of almost anything that she writes. But the collection of essays that I selected was This is the Story of a Happy Marriage.

[00:45:13] I so appreciate her authenticity and taking what would seem like a simple event or story and really deepening it. Now, I hope I’m not blurring my books because I also loved her other one. But I think this is the collection where she talks about the nun in her Catholic school who taught her to read and the impact of that on her life and how she reconnected with her when the woman was very elderly and actually in many ways took care of her.

I believe the order closed. And so these nuns had lived kind of isolated in many ways apart from their little world and their school. Then suddenly their order closes. One detail I remember that I totally loved and I think about often is when Ann then had to teach her how to use an ATM card.

For some reason, there’s something so wonderful, of course, about the teacher-student relationship, but also how relationships in our lives change, how we go from being a daughter to a caregiver, from a student to a teacher, and sometimes back again.

[00:46:28] She’s just so real. I believe so strongly that as I’ve gotten older, I’m more willing to be really honest about what my struggle is because I think it’s a sense of relief to other people like, oh, you have that struggle too, or they’re not as shocked as we think that they may be, or I had that feeling too. I love that about Ann Patchett’s work, both her fiction, which is incredible and her nonfiction.

ANNE: Okay. Karen, what is the third book and how did it make you feel?

KAREN: So the third book I have a real soft spot for is Prep by Curtis Sittenfeld. I remember reading this when it first came out and really enjoying it. But I designed an elective and Prep was one of the novels we read.

It’s the story of this young woman who comes from, I believe, the Midwest and goes to a New England boarding school. I know that Curtis Sittenfeld went to a New England boarding school. In some ways, it was a coming-of-age novel. There was so much that stood the test of time.

[00:47:42] One of my students pointed out that even though the book was, as they said, really old, maybe 10, 15 years old, the only thing missing was social media. So many of the experiences were so similar. The feelings of doubt, the feelings of first love and passionate friendship and failing math and all those things that happen in high school. I loved reading it.

Again, the honesty, the messiness, the growth, how people kind of come in and out of her life, the fights with parents. It was such a joy to share it with my students and have them talk about it with me. I really, really enjoyed that.

It felt very familiar to me. Every school has a different sort of sense of community or a different flavor, I say, but there was something that really resonated, I think, with all of us about being in a boarding school, in a Prep school.

[00:48:40] ANNE: I love that you chose that one. That feels perfect for you. Thanks for bringing it to the show.

KAREN: Sure.

ANNE: Karen, what book was not right for you?

KAREN: I think the book that wasn’t right for me, and again, I had to teach it and maybe because it was just a bit of an effort for me, is The Alchemist. It’s just not for me. That type of hero’s journey, that type of allegory just doesn’t really resonate with me.

I certainly got through it. It wasn’t terrible, but I’m not drawn to books like that. I didn’t feel connected to it, nor even to the character. I know that’s an experience that’s really different for other readers. Some people I know will list it as their favorite, and I just wasn’t feeling it. Unfortunately, The Alchemist.

ANNE: What were you feeling? Or perhaps it was the lack that defined it.

[00:49:40] KAREN: I was feeling like, let’s get this over with. Is this trip ever going to end? I mean, I appreciate what the author… what he does, but really having to dig for all the symbolism and the meaning just felt like an effort and just not my thing.

ANNE: It’s worth saying, everyone, that The Alchemist has been chosen as a favorite on this show as well, because reading is personal.

KAREN: I know. Exactly.

ANNE: Karen, what have you been reading lately?

KAREN: Oh gosh, Anne, I have to say I’m so grateful for your Summer Reading Guide this year. I think you all knocked it out of the park. I really felt inspired by it. But probably my favorite book of the summer was The God of the Woods by Liz Moore. Wow.

I love the Adirondacks, but I just was so immersed in those very messy, imperfect, complex characters. I loved the literary mystery feel to it. I loved that sense of place. I could just feel it and smell it. I really, really enjoyed it.

[00:50:54] Once again, sort of felt like, wow, these people are a hot mess, but they’re human. I could understand it for most of them. I loved that book and have recommended that to so many people.

ANNE: If you haven’t read more Liz Moore, we were talking pre-recording about how you love books and movies with a strong sense of Boston. Her second novel, The Unseen World, has a lot of the same literary mystery. It’s got big family elements and it’s also set in Boston and largely takes place on the campus of MIT.

KAREN: No kidding. Wonderful.

ANNE: Check it out. If you all say Will Bogel is your book twin, you want to hear what he’s reading, he just finished that one and really enjoyed it after coming to her via God of the Woods like so many this summer.

KAREN: I love it. I love it. I will definitely explore her. I hadn’t read… is it Long River?

ANNE: Long Bright River. Mm-hmm.

[00:51:52] KAREN: Long Bright River. I haven’t read that yet, but I certainly will. I just was so intrigued with what she did. And of course, I tend to go down the rabbit hole with authors and whatnot and want to read about them and their experience of writing it and what else they’ve read. I found it just so intriguing. I look forward to reading other Liz Moore books.

ANNE: I’m glad to hear it.

KAREN: Again, from the reading guide, I also read… I have not actually been reading Long Bright River, but I believe it’s on my Kindle. I also read Sandwich and loved that. Thank you for that recommendation.

You talk about the mundane. I keep picturing the character making the sandwiches in the beach house and just the complexity of being sandwiched in that generation. So I loved that book too.

ANNE: I’m so glad that landed for you. Karen, we have covered a lot of ground, various components of your reading life today, but as we’re looking towards recommendations and what we’re going to send you on your way with, what are you looking for or perhaps open to is the right version of that right now? What’s missing? How can I fill in the gaps?

[00:52:59] KAREN: Well, I’m very mindful that even though I work in the summer, I have more open time to get lost in novels. So something has to really grab me as the school year and the busyness of it and that cognitive fatigue starts to kick in. My days are long and full and I might go from class to going to a personnel meeting to going to another type of meeting to meeting with a family. So it’s a lot in one day.

But I think what grabs me or what I’m always interested in is maybe books that have a rhythm of a school year or a rhythm of life in a village or in a community and where people are fully human. They’re not perfect, but they’re rich in their humanity.

ANNE: Books that have a rhythm of a school year or a cycle. That’s very interesting.

[00:54:00] KAREN: For example, I love a book that goes through the span of a year or of an experience or of a trip or something. The Road to Dalton, for example, I think one of the reasons why I loved that was because a tragedy happens and then we saw how the town organizes itself around it.

In the same way that I think I’ve stayed in education and I enjoy education so much is I understand the pattern. I understand what September and October is going to be like, and I know what February and March feels like in New England. I think Elizabeth Strout does this really well. I think she kind of captures the rhythm and ritual of a year or of a summer or of an experience.

ANNE: Karen, this is fun. So we have had some words come up repeatedly in our conversation today. “Contained” is one of them. Complex, interesting, messiness. You didn’t say murkiness, but last week’s guest, Hunter, did, and that’s still ringing in my ears as we’re talking about human nature and what makes it interesting to read about.

[00:55:15] I’m also drawing on some things that you told us in your submission that have… I know we’re in the stew for putting together your reader profile in my mind. Like that’s where I first heard you love true crime, how you’re intrigued by fantasy, supernatural elements. You never go there. Maybe you like them. How would you know if you don’t try them?

And you are intrigued by books that have a rhythm or that take place in a contained timeframe, like say a school calendar or a week on vacation, like you chose Sandwich by Catherine Newman. Let’s see if we can offer you a little of everything, but not in the same book.

KAREN: Okay.

ANNE: Karen, I’d like to start with Chemistry by Weike Wang. Is this one you’ve read before?

KAREN: I have not. Okay.

ANNE: This came out in 2017. This is her debut novel and it is messy. It’s quirky. It’s interior. We’re in the mind of our narrator. She’s a chemistry PhD student. She’s Chinese American. She feels crushed by the demands of her program and her demanding parents who have very high standards for her and expect a certain thing and will be devastated and angry if she doesn’t live up to those ideals in every way and more than.

[00:56:37] So she decides to take a leave of absence to figure out what she really wants to do with her life. She has a committed boyfriend. Her parents love him or at least want her to marry him. He wants to get married and she can’t say yes, and she’s trying to figure out why.

This is a literary novel. You talked about loving literary mysteries. This isn’t a mystery. This is a literary dive into someone’s mind who is trying to figure things out, who is going through a hard time, who has a really funny self-deprecating sense of humor. It’s got really tight prose and the structure is really interesting and serves the story well. It almost feels like a memoir.

It happens in a contained period. I’m trying to remember if it’s over the course of a semester or a school year. You’re in her mind. Sometimes she’s thinking about hard things and for the sensitive reader, you could be like, Whoa, I didn’t see that coming. So just know that… Karen, I’m not as concerned about you because of some of the things I know you enjoy. But in general, if you have expectations about a book you’re reading about a chemistry PhD student, you might not expect some of the sensitive content. So I want to give a heads-up to some readers.

KAREN: Okay.

[00:57:47] ANNE: This is a quick dip inside the mind of someone who is living her life and trying to navigate circumstances that aren’t commonplace by any means and not like yours or mine, but also are feeling to her… it’s a quiet kind of crisis. How about that? And I think you may enjoy it. How does that sound to you?

KAREN: I think it sounds amazing. I love to read Asian, Asian American writers. I have many Chinese students. I actually started my career in China many years ago teaching. So I think this sounds really interesting.

ANNE: I am glad to hear that. Okay, next, can we do something a little weird?

KAREN: Sure.

ANNE: A little supernatural?

KAREN: Okay.

ANNE: Great narrative drive.

KAREN: Sure.

ANNE: Firmly grounded in reality. Are we going through a checklist? Will you sign off on this point and this point and this point and this point?

KAREN: Absolutely. I’m open to anything. Yeah.

ANNE: The book I’m interested in seeing how this lands for you is called Lost Man’s Lane. It’s by Scott Carson. That is a pen name for Michael Koryta.

[00:58:52] This book is set in Bloomington, Indiana, where Indiana University is. The school is very much in the story, even though it doesn’t take place on the campus. Like lots of our 17-year-old protagonist and narrator’s parents teach at the school or work at the school in other capacities.

One parent says that she works in academia, but she’s administration and talks about how some of the other students and definitely some of her colleagues look down on her because she’s not a professor. It’s got some of that campus town grounding.

He also talks about Bloomington and the relationship between the townies and the university town and also what makes a university town just really freaking cool. Like what it has going on and what it means for the diversity of his friend group and how there’s always something happening in town because there’s always something happening on campus. The summer is a little sleepy, but even in the summer.

So I’m setting that up in a different way than I would for someone who didn’t live in what they describe as their, you know, little educational village and live and work at a boarding school.

[00:59:59] So the story begins with an author’s note, which is not coming from Scott Carson. It’s coming from our teenage narrator, all grown up, who’s telling you that in this book that he has written for you, he is going to tell the truth about everything that happened back then in 1999. So it’s your fictional memoir autobiography history component. And you’re not going to believe it because some of it is wild, but he has sworn not to tell any lies here, this is what happened.

And then we go back in time and he’s 16, it’s 1999. And it is very 1999. The music choices, they talk about Columbine. They talk about… oh, you know what? It’s not set entirely in 1999 because they end up talking about 9-11.

If you were a teenager or a young adult as I was during that time period, there’s a big nostalgia element here. But Marshall’s 16, he finally gets his driver’s license. He’s psyched. This means freedom.

[01:01:03] He’s only had it for maybe like 45 minutes when he’s driving down the road and he gets pulled over by a cop, and he’s mortified. He can’t believe this. What is this single mother going to do? He tries so hard not to disappoint her. Will he ever be able to drive again? What’s this going to do to their insurance premiums? They get by, but it’s hard. He’s just completely spinning out.

The cop gives him a ticket. It’s not a pleasant interaction. Marshall’s never had an adult swear at him before. He’s just feeling horrible in all the ways, and he doesn’t feel like this cop is making it easy for him. He notices that there’s this beautiful blonde girl about his age in the back of the cop car wearing a uniform from the local ice cream shop. And he’s like, “I wonder what she did. Poor girl to be in the back of that cop car.”

So cop lets him go. He keeps waiting to get the notice in the mail that he owes a bunch of money and ticket and for his mom to hit the roof and all that, it never happens. He wonders if the cop didn’t turn in the ticket or what.

[01:01:59] Then several months later, a friend comes to him and says, “Do you remember talking about getting pulled over? Do you remember the blonde girl in the back of the car? Do you remember how she was wearing the ice cream uniform? Is this her?” And it’s a picture of a missing sign.

So what he finds out is he was the last to see this girl in the back of the cop car. But he finds out that the cop is not actually with the local police like he said he was. There’s nobody by that name. Nobody can turn up anybody by that name or by that description.

He and his mom go to the PI who is searching for this woman because the police don’t want to have anything to do with it. She’s 18 years old and she’s an adult. That’s handled differently. That’s how they explain it. And he can’t find anything on this man and it’s weird and it just keeps getting weirder.

[01:02:51] So what I like about this for you with your interest in true crime is Scott Carson is telling the story thoroughly grounded in reality and slowly brings in these supernatural elements. Anyone who’s read some of a certain kind of Stephen King novel, especially like a fairy tale before it goes full fantasy will find a lot to like here.

But he takes an internship with the local PI, which is something that Scott Carson, which is Michael Koryta did himself when he was a student at IU. So he’s drawing on this like deep knowledge of Bloomington, which is where the author graduated from and experience in the field as a PI. The story goes interesting places.

Karen, if you have a thing about snakes, this might not be the book for you. Friends, there are snakes in this book and they are scary.

KAREN: I’m laughing so much because we don’t have a ton of snakes, but I saw one in my garden yesterday and I screamed so loud.

[01:03:51] ANNE: It was an omen that you were going to get a great book.

KAREN: I guess it was so funny. Trust me, it was a garden snake. It was not a big deal, but of course that freaked me out. But anyway, maybe that was an omen. Exactly. That sounds absolutely intriguing and amazing.

ANNE: I’m glad to hear it. There are a lot of books we could talk about that I think you would enjoy. We found out you already read The Rachel Incident by Caroline O’Donohue, which I think sounded perfect for you.

I’m wondering about Come and Get It by Kiley Reid, which in some senses is about the mundanity of campus life, but in others is very, very much about money and race and class. And I don’t know if those are things that interest you.

KAREN: Is this set in a Southern Universe…? I started it and then I didn’t finish.

ANNE: University of Arkansas.

KAREN: Yes. Where she’s like a RA and the… Yes. I started it and you know what? I didn’t finish it, which doesn’t mean that I won’t. I might’ve been distracted by something else, but I found it very intriguing.

[01:04:49] ANNE: Well, I wonder about that for you. The House of Eve by Sadeqa Johnson could take you back in time to, I think it’s the 60s DC area, campus, family, race, class, money, all big there. But I thought maybe we want to do an essay collection. What do you think?

KAREN: Sure. Absolutely.

ANNE: Okay. We were talking about how perhaps, if you’re going to go print, this could be a way to go with a great essay collection. And maybe you have plenty, but just in case, I want you to have one that I think will be up your alley. It’s by Elisa Gabbert. It just came out this summer. It’s called Any Person Is The Only Self. Do you know this book?

KAREN: I do not.

ANNE: Okay. I am still trying to make sense of that title. I believe it comes from Sylvia Plath. I have read and reread and reread and reread and reread, and I think I get what she’s saying maybe kind of some days, but this is what you need to know. These are essays on reading. We won’t make it complicated. These are essays on reading.

[01:05:50] So she writes an essay about a cart at the front of her library in Denver that is called Recently Returned. The essay might be called Recently Returned. She says how these books are completely random. They are just what people have checked out and returned today to the library. But it’s her favorite place to browse because you never know what you’re going to find.

And instead of showing up the library going, you know what I want? I want a book set in 1870s Vienna about the painters, instead, you get whatever your neighbor checked out. I would argue that this is not anti-curation exactly. This is what people are actually reading. I kind of want to argue with that, but it’s fun to argue with in your head.

But she talks about what it means to be a reader and some of the things she has read that she’s wrestled with that have changed her, how she approaches various aspects of the reading life.

[01:06:49] You mentioned Gatsby. She talks about Gatsby. She has some things to say about Gatsby. But there are just all sorts of subjects that all have to do with being a book lover, like going back to when she was a kid, things she’s worked on professionally, essays she struggled to write, how reading shapes us as people.

Sometimes she does a deep dive on a certain topic, like she has an extended essay about Sylvia Plath, and sometimes it’s like a quicker hit about like, you know what I was thinking recently about what it means to be a reader? It’s funny. It’s endearing. It’s really smart. You’re an English teacher. I think this could be fun for you.

KAREN: It sounds really intriguing. And it sounds like it could also solve that problem of… you know, that might be something I get in hardcover or, you know, whatever it’s in and have it on my table so that I am reaching for that. It sounds really intriguing.

ANNE: This is a paperback original.

KAREN: Okay.

ANNE: So less expensive. You’re not going to be able to find a hardcover though.

[01:07:51] KAREN: Yeah, that’s all right.

ANNE: But I think that could be fun for you.

KAREN: I think so too. I think it sounds terrific.

ANNE: And for anyone who just wants to get curious about books with someone who feels like really easy to talk to and also is super-duper nerdy about the reading life.

KAREN: Sounds right up my alley, doesn’t it?

ANNE: Well, I hope so.

KAREN: Yeah. Wow.

ANNE: If someone saw this on the Recently Returned shelf, they might use the phrase anti-curation to describe them because they don’t seem to have a lot in common. But we talked about Chemistry by Weike Wang, Lost Man’s Lane by Scott Carson, and Any Person Is the Only Self by Elisa Gabbert. Karen, of those books, or the little ones we tossed off besides, what do you think you’ll read next?

KAREN: Good heavens. I can pretty much say I’m going to try to read all of them. But there’s something that sounds really immersive about Lost Man’s Lane that I might reach for. I think I might have a week to still really get lost in another world. They all sound amazing but I think maybe I’ll start with Lost Man’s Lane.

[01:08:58] ANNE: I love the sound of that. Karen, this has been a pleasure. Thanks for talking books with me today.

KAREN: Oh, what a pleasure. Thank you so much, Anne.

ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Karen, and I’d love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Karen on Instagram. We have that link along with the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

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Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that’s it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, “Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading.” Happy reading, everyone.